Which is D&D? 4e or 2e?

[sinecure]

well, clearly 2e is not d&d.

As soon as they changed cleric to priest i said the hell with it.

Wp

qft

 

[Engilbrand]

Thanks to Betote, my name is apparently Steve. Just Steve.

 

[Thasmodious]

You are ALL wrong! No edition of D&D is D&D. D&D is a illusion created by gnomes (who are, nonetheless, awesome)!

DISBELIEVE PEOPLE! DISBELIEVE!!

 

[SableWyvern]

No, it's not. THACO is useful because you can use it to calculate what you need to hit any AC.

In 1E, the combat tables did not go 18-19-20-21-22... they went 18-19-20-20-20-20-20-20-21-22 or whatever. There's a stretch of ACs where 20 hits, not just a single AC.

So like I said in a previous post, a 1st-level MU has a 20 THAC0. But also a 20 THAC1. He needs the same number to hit AC 1 as he does AC 0. Because of the repeating 20's.

So it's not just an acronym. It actually changes how the to-hit mechanics work at certain ACs, if you use THACO to calculate what you need to hit these ACs.

No. The method of determining whether an attack hits of misses was streamlined in 2E, but this was not because it introduced THAC0. Take a look at the 1E DMG, Appendix E. The third column is labeled "To hit A.C. 0"

THAC0 is an acronym for a term that existed in the earliest days of 1E. That it is commonly associated with the 2E "to hit" system doesn't make the term itself any less a part of 1E.

Edit: Sorry, skipped a page of this thread and didn't realise this had already been covered sufficiently. Didn't mean to keep harping on the point.

 

[big3.5fan]

I hear what you are saying Iron Fang,

To answer your question, yes technically all versions of Dungeons and Dragons are Dungeons and Dragons. Having said that things are what you make of them. Obviously the game mechanics is one of the defining features of the game. I have no problem with deciding that the new direction Dungeons and Dragons is taking to compete with other entertainment systems is drastic enough that I don't consider it my understanding of what D&D is.

The D&D archetypes I would argue have changed even more in the newest edition than any changes from the previous editions.

Others might disagree, you for example might think 2nd to 3rd was a severe and too drastic a change. I argue the essence stayed the same. I don't think you can really make that argument for 4th edition.

My handle pretty much says where I stand. I started playing Unearthed Arcana 1st edition rules. The people I played with always kept elements of 1st edition in the 2nd edition game.

When 3rd edition came around I was very angry. But I started playing, I really paid attenetion to what the rules were and realized how well it works. I've read all the rules for 4th edition and are really turned off.

Have you actually played a 3rd edition game Iron Fang?

 

[Engilbrand]

People like ice cream. There are a lot of different companies that make ice cream. There are a lot of flavors. There are a lot of mix-ins. But all of those people still like ice cream.
What about custard and gelato? Those are very similar to ice cream. I don't always know the difference.
This is how I see D&D. D&D is ice cream. There are a lot of different kinds and they're made by different companies. But, if you say, "I like ice cream." people have a rough idea of what you mean. That's when you say, "I prefer Moose Tracks." or "I like Peanut Butter ice cream." If you're into something that you consider D&D for some other reason, then you might say, "I'm a fan of custard."
Personally, I'm not a fan of vanilla. Give me the delicious stuff with a bunch of extra stuff.
My name's Steve, and I like Peanut Butter Cup Explosion.

 

[Remathilis]

People like ice cream. There are a lot of different companies that make ice cream. There are a lot of flavors. There are a lot of mix-ins. But all of those people still like ice cream.
What about custard and gelato? Those are very similar to ice cream. I don't always know the difference.
This is how I see D&D. D&D is ice cream. There are a lot of different kinds and they're made by different companies. But, if you say, "I like ice cream." people have a rough idea of what you mean. That's when you say, "I prefer Moose Tracks." or "I like Peanut Butter ice cream." If you're into something that you consider D&D for some other reason, then you might say, "I'm a fan of custard."
Personally, I'm not a fan of vanilla. Give me the delicious stuff with a bunch of extra stuff.
My name's Steve, and I like Peanut Butter Cup Explosion.

But we all know since they added coffee-flavoring and removed the peanuts, its not REALLLY ice cream, it just says "Ice Cream" on the carton because Ben & Jerry says so.

 

[DeusExMachina]

But we all know since they added coffee-flavoring and removed the peanuts, its not REALLLY ice cream, it just says "Ice Cream" on the carton because Ben & Jerry says so.

If it tastes like ice cream, is cold like ice cream and gives you that nice nostalgic feeling like ice cream... what is it???

New York Super Fudge Chunk for the win

 

[Raven Crowking]

People like ice cream. There are a lot of different companies that make ice cream. There are a lot of flavors. There are a lot of mix-ins. But all of those people still like ice cream.
What about custard and gelato? Those are very similar to ice cream. I don't always know the difference.
This is how I see D&D. D&D is ice cream. There are a lot of different kinds and they're made by different companies. But, if you say, "I like ice cream." people have a rough idea of what you mean. That's when you say, "I prefer Moose Tracks." or "I like Peanut Butter ice cream." If you're into something that you consider D&D for some other reason, then you might say, "I'm a fan of custard."
Personally, I'm not a fan of vanilla. Give me the delicious stuff with a bunch of extra stuff.
My name's Steve, and I like Peanut Butter Cup Explosion.

But we all know since they added coffee-flavoring and removed the dairy products, its not REALLLY ice cream, it just says "Ice Cream" on the carton because Ben & Jerry says so.

You can be snide all you want, Remathilis, but others have a right to determine what is important re: identity to them.


RC


EDIT: For the record, I do think 4e is D&D, but I can easily see the possibility of a package that says "ice cream" but contains no dairy products and is not cold. I can also understand why, for some, that day has already come.

 

[justanobody]

People like ice cream. There are a lot of different companies that make ice cream. There are a lot of flavors. There are a lot of mix-ins. But all of those people still like ice cream.
What about custard and gelato? Those are very similar to ice cream. I don't always know the difference.
This is how I see D&D. D&D is ice cream. There are a lot of different kinds and they're made by different companies. But, if you say, "I like ice cream." people have a rough idea of what you mean. That's when you say, "I prefer Moose Tracks." or "I like Peanut Butter ice cream." If you're into something that you consider D&D for some other reason, then you might say, "I'm a fan of custard."
Personally, I'm not a fan of vanilla. Give me the delicious stuff with a bunch of extra stuff.
My name's Steve, and I like Peanut Butter Cup Explosion.

Here is where your analogy falls apart.

Ice cream is to RPG what Ben & Jerry's is to D&D.

4th is like cone, and 2e is like cup. You can get both from Ben & Jerry's, but they are not the same thing.

You are associating the wrong hierarchy in your analogy to the items within it.

Because if D&D is ice cream, then there exists no other RPG in your analogy, so it falls flat. Or do you consider all other RPGs as yogurt which is not the same as ice cream, therefore they are not RPGs, is D&D is the only RPG?