Which is D&D? 4e or 2e?

[Fifth Element]

Sorry, I forgot to mention:

Attack matrices are awesome.

And so is THACO.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't find this argument compelling. If the name "D&D" was slapped on Monopoly, Monopoly would not be D&D.

I don't find this argument compelling. You are using an example that is too extreme and doesn't fit any believable scenario in the first place.

If I slap the D&D label on Microsoft Excel, it would be D&D, because it says so, but it wouldn't be the D&D role-playing game. It would be D&D spreadsheet application.

So yes, if I would slap the D&D label on Torg, it would be a D&D role-playing game. I might prefer to describe it a little more narrow, the "D&D cinematic role-playing game". Similar to D&D 4 is not just D&D, it's D&D 4th Edition. Or like AD&D 2E is Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition.

If a 2e player says "I play D&D" and a 4e player says "I play D&D", they are not both playing the same game.

Indeed. If a Windows 95 user says "I use Windows" and if a Windows Vista user says "I use Windows VIsta", they are not both using the same operating system. If they want to clarify what they are using (because they are not in a context implying which version they are refering to), they would say "I use Windows 95" or "I use Windows Vista".

But still, if they'd just say "I use Windows", they would know a few things. "Ah, the Microsoft OS. Start-Menu on the bottom left (standard configuration), taskbar, multiple windows, task manager."
The Vista user might also think of "sidebar" "transparent windows" while the Win95 user might thing "unstable" or "no USB support". But a lot of the concepts are common ground.

If I say "I play D&D" people will think "pseudo-medieval fantasy, Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Halflings, Divine/Arcane magic split, fighters, rogues or thieves, clerics, wizards. Dungeons and Dragons. Lots of dungeon exploration, fighting kobolds, goblins, orcs, Beholder, Mind Flayer, and of course Dragons". T
The 2E player might think of "Cleric/Spheres or kits, THAC0", while the 4E player might also think of "Tiefling and Eladrin and Healing Surges"

....

Agh, why am I letting myself dragged into this?!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Most likely. I haven't been through it in detail, but it appears to essentially be houseruled D&D (like my own games), so yes, it's likely awesome.

Likely awesome?!?!







RC

 

[doctorhook]

...

So as EGG wrote it, THACO does not work.

I'm a firm believer that the best contributions EGG made to D&D were definitely NOT mechanical.

 

[avin]

"WTF IS THIS???"

My exactly thoughts on THAC0 and negative AC.

The only edition I couldn't care less is AD&D.

Except for CRPGS like Icewind Dale I never had fun of it... even rollin9 00 for STR once \o/

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't find this argument compelling. You are using an example that is too extreme and doesn't fit any believable scenario in the first place.

I use an extreme example because it is easier for most people to understand the argument when extreme examples are used. The same argument applies to things that are more similar, but people tend not to see the differences as easily, and it is therefore more difficult to get them to understand the crux of the argument.

There is some emotional baggage involved in using D&D as an example, so if you like, we can use another.

Right now, there is an ongoing debate about whether or not the term "species" has any scientific meaning, because of the same sort of problems. How do you identify "species"? What does it mean, exactly? If one person, or one group of people, determines what "species" means without any form of objective standard, does the term itself have any useful meaning?

There was an interesting Scientific American article about the same a short while ago, that discussed the problems of identifying species by various means. The minute you place objective standards on the term, you discover things that seem clearly to be species that do not meet the objective standards.

There has been a lot written on the same subject -- ascribing meaning to terms and conservation of identity -- going back to the ancient world. This might be of interest to you: Ship of Theseus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Ultimately, I would say that it doesn't matter if you, I, or Bobby Joe Bob thinks X is D&D......except to you, I, or Bobby Joe Bob, of course. However, how we determine the identity of a thing is, all by itself, a topic I find very interesting. YMMV.


RC

 

[Holy Bovine]

I took out that offending phrase, so if you want top get down from your white horse or climb down from your ivory tower of eliteness, feel free, the mud's been removed.

Wow. Just keep this trainwreck a-movin' don't we?

 

[jdrakeh]

So what do we call 2e players, since the official company says 4e is D&D?

D&D players. Do old models of Ford, Chevrolet, or Chrysler autombiles cease to be Fords, Chevrolets, or Chryslers because the manufacturer releases a new model? No. Same thing with D&D. A new edition of D&D does not make past editions of the game any less D&D.

 

[ironfang]

Indeed. If a Windows 95 user says "I use Windows" and if a Windows Vista user says "I use Windows VIsta", they are not both using the same operating system. If they want to clarify what they are using (because they are not in a context implying which version they are refering to), they would say "I use Windows 95" or "I use Windows Vista".

But still, if they'd just say "I use Windows", they would know a few things. "Ah, the Microsoft OS. Start-Menu on the bottom left (standard configuration), taskbar, multiple windows, task manager."
The Vista user might also think of "sidebar" "transparent windows" while the Win95 user might thing "unstable" or "no USB support". But a lot of the concepts are common ground.

If I say "I play D&D" people will think "pseudo-medieval fantasy, Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Halflings, Divine/Arcane magic split, fighters, rogues or thieves, clerics, wizards. Dungeons and Dragons. Lots of dungeon exploration, fighting kobolds, goblins, orcs, Beholder, Mind Flayer, and of course Dragons". T
The 2E player might think of "Cleric/Spheres or kits, THAC0", while the 4E player might also think of "Tiefling and Eladrin and Healing Surges"

I like this explanation the best. Succinct and logical. Not quiet sure why everyone else just gets really mad about the question though (probably the poor way I framed it I guess).

 

[Pants]

Essentially, there are a bunch of different games out there that have the "crawl, kill, loot" sequence to them. Heroes Quest is not D&D, but is the same principal. Myths and Magic, same thing, different game. The question is valid, and is not an attack on 4e (though I shouldnt have called 3.5 a MMORPG on paper).

When the mechanics differ greatly... the game has changed.

2e did not have half-orcs, assassins, monks, and it had THACO, thus it is not D&D.

Sorry, guess you really haven't been playing D&D all those years. [/sarcasm]

I like this explanation the best. Succinct and logical. Not quiet sure why everyone else just gets really mad about the question though (probably the poor way I framed it I guess).

That would most likely be the reason. People tend to get a bit aggravated if someone 'insinuates' that the game they love and play is not, in actuality, the game they love and play.