Which non-core monsters should have been core?

[Garnfellow]

I am surprised that the one-paragraph for each monster on "In the Realms" was enough to distract you from its utility as a generic sourcebook. If it helps, cover up the FR-specific text with liquid paper.

Well, Sean, I think you missed my point. The MoF couldn't decide if it was really a fish or really a fowl. It's not that I hate the Realms or object to any trace of Realms lore in my core books -- but in MoF there's just enough Realms stuff to annoy buyers who hate Faerun, and just not enough info to really satisfy the big fans of the Realms or "convert" those people who don't run the Realms.

Frankly, I found most of those "In the Realms" paragraphs in MoF to be rather superficial and superfluous. They felt like the old "Ecology" paragraphs in 2e, where the designers were often clearly just trying to pad out the monster entry to fit one page. None of these paragraphs inspired me enough to pull out my Forgetten Realms books and run a game there; really good sidebars will do that.

I realize that it's a difficult struggle to find just the right balance when catering to two different audiences, but in my opinion, the newer WotC monster books do a far better job of providing sidebars of the right depth for "In Eberron" or "In the Realms". Currently I don't run either setting, but recently I've seen several sidebars that made the setting sound so cool that I wanted to try them out immediately.

For some great examples of monster books that effectively pull in setting specific info, I like the Monsternomicon or Races of Avidnu, where the background is woven tightly into the monster description, with plot hooks, history, and some new game mechanics. (Or for that matter, your New Argonauts book, with its nifty Knowledge (history) line.)

 

[Cam Banks]

Happily, Genasi seem to have been carried foreward elsewhere, but we still have yet to see updated treatment or featuring of creatures like Abishai and Shadow Dragons out there, instead being deluged with new creatures that (personal nit or not) don't do near as much to capture my imagination as these old favorites.

We were allowed to use the shadow dragon in the Age of Mortals sourcebook for Dragonlance 3e, because one appeared in DL3 Dragons of Hope long before one appeared in FR. I had to convert it to 3.5e first, though. WOTC later did their own conversion when they published it in the Draconomicon, but I have a feeling they're pretty close.

One of the benefits of working with a licensed property is being able to use these classic monsters that aren't core, but it has to be justified. Can't start using deepspawn in a Dragonlance product just because we'd like to, but using a sirine makes perfect sense (since there was one in Time of the Twins, the gladiator Kiiri).

Cheers,
Cam

 

[seankreynolds]

Well, Sean, I think you missed my point. The MoF couldn't decide if it was really a fish or really a fowl.

Yeah, and that's because it was contested between the Core team and the FR team. The Core team wasn't going to do a monster book for at least a year, the FR team needed to publish official updates of key FR creatures.

::shrug:: What can ya do?

 

[MirrorMask]

Here is one that I NEVER understood why it was left out. Thankfully Green Ronin put it in their "Book of Fiends". What am I babbling about? The Incubus! Seriously, you have Succubi, why not balance them out with Incubi?

-MirrorMask

 

[devilbat]

Green Slime
Yellow Mold
Rot Grubs
Death Knight
Bullywug
Banshee
Gnoll, Flind

 

[Mouseferatu]

Green Slime
Yellow Mold

They are core. They're just core hazards now, rather than core monsters. Check out the DMG.

 

[Erik Mona]

Modrons, and coincidentally, the reasons above for the 'loths were also apparently some of the major reasons for not having modrons in the MM as well. Of course, later on, with different folks in charge, there seemed to be a much for obvious and actual distate for them.

I was there at the time, and I think it's fair to say that the dislike of modrons existed as early as 1999, and is still (very much) in place today. I think that's rather a pity (said the man who published a Dungeon adventure called "Box of Flumph"), because I think it's a far better idea to reinterpret and improve the bastard stepchildren of D&D, rather than to cast them into the outer darkness.

The sad fact of the matter is that Planescape, and Monte Cook in particular, went a long way toward rehabilitating the modrons, but by then it was too late, and Planescape products were selling at about the rate of a successful d20 module today. Ergo, almost no one was reading them.

To most people, including a lot of the decision-makers at Wizards of the Coast when third edition was launched, the modrons were just those weird dice-shaped monsters in Monster Manual 2. A lot of other people knew about them but just thought they were lame.

--Erik

 

[Hussar]

You mean Modrons weren't lame? Blarg.

Sorry, Formians are a much better LN archetype than funky dice shaped critters.

What would I have liked to have seen made core? Pretty much what has been mentioned here plus maybe the gorynych (sp?). I just always loved that critter and abused far too many parties with it.

 

[Cam Banks]

I was there at the time, and I think it's fair to say that the dislike of modrons existed as early as 1999, and is still (very much) in place today. I think that's rather a pity (said the man who published a Dungeon adventure called "Box of Flumph"), because I think it's a far better idea to reinterpret and improve the bastard stepchildren of D&D, rather than to cast them into the outer darkness.

I share a similar philosophy. I write a lot of Dragonlance material as a freelancer for Sovereign Press and a great deal of weird and obscure things have been included in that setting in its 21+ years of print. When the Bestiary of Krynn was being planned, we had a lot of DL-specific monsters to choose from, and a huge amount of them were a little odd or downright silly. I think we rehabilitated quite a lot of them.

All except the kodragon. Weird little marsupial dragons with big brown eyes and a stylus? No thanks!

Cheers,
Cam

 

[danbuter]

I'm pretty sure the first dracolich was in a Mayfair Games book, Lich Lords I believe.