G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Isn't the D&D version spelled "mithral"?
I'm sure (cough) that the similarity is entirely coincidental....
D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?
Isn't the D&D version spelled "mithral"?
I'm sure (cough) that the similarity is entirely coincidental....
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
The entire list of 1e races.
Humans
Dwarves
Elves
Halflings(Hobbits)
Half-elves
Half-orcs - I may be imagining this one, but I thought Tolkien had man-orcs in one of his books.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I feel fairly secure in thinking that Tokien did not invent humans.
Heh. That's what I get for posting this early in the morning. I'll concede that one.
Celebrim
Legend
The elves are adopted from the names of Tolkien's divisions of elves, imagined as referring to physical traits rather than social/cultural choices. Thus we have high elves, gray elves, wood elves and dark elves.
Everything about halflings, right down to the racial divisions of them and the expectation that they make good burglars is lifted from Tolkien.
Orcs and goblins generally, but specifically, orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins are imagined as different sizes of monstrous humanoids based on a passage in 'The Hobbit' describing the inhabitants of the Grey Mountains.
Half-orcs and half-elves, even if reimagined, that's all Tolkien. Balrog's with whips and flaming swords. Giant eagles as basically good creatures. To a large extent, Dwarves as we know them. Rangers with the ability to use crystal balls. Wizards throwing lightning bolts and balls of fire is Tolkien, and traceably and provably so since we know the historical derivation through the Middle Earth mass combat game that influenced D&D. Indeed, a goodly portion of the original low level wizard spell list can be traced to passages in Tolkien, including light, knock, pyrotechnics and hold portal.
The silvery metal 'mithril'. The axe of the dwarven lords is Durin's Axe. The elven cloak and boots is Tolkien, as is the tree animating 'Treants', as is the fact that 'Werebears' are not evil, and that goblins ride on worgs. I don't think we can be certain that wights and wraiths wouldn't exist without Tolkien, but they probably certainly influenced the naming of undead creatures.
There are plenty of things in the game that are not Tolkien, but the core of the setting is typically Tolkien.
Let's seeee....hmmm...
Characters & Creatures:
Halflings -obvs.
Elves - Pretty much everything about D&D elves as a player character race and as their original incarnation as a race-class capable of both weapons and magic. Both the general description, size, interests/culture and the specific breakdown of "High" vs. "Wood" vs. "Grey" (mistakenly referred to in the films as the "high elves" of Gondolin. I believe the shining blond-haired with violet eyes "Fairies", as Gygax first refers to them in the MM, is based from Galadriel, and Elrond references them -at least in the films as far as I recall though don't remember if it's in the books- as his "kin"). Also, as elsewhere mentioned here, the antagonism between elves and dwarves is distinctly drawn from Tolkien.
Dwarves - This is something of a mish-mosh of Tolkien and his knowledge/appreciation for Anglo-Saxon and Norse mythologies (and others, of course, that he used for other elements). But their size, ever bearded (including the females) appearance, axe-wielding, goblin/orc fighting selves -and the elf antagonism- strikes me as specifically Tolkien. Their giant-fighting, their mining and smithing/crafting skill, love of gold/precious metals are distinctly from the [Norse/Germanic] mythological base.
Half-elves - whether the D&D Half-elf is intended to mirror Elrond (Tolkien's true "half-elf") or Aragorn (a "man" who has some extra magic/knowledge/nobility in his bloodline). The term certainly, comes from the former, while I think the concept/image/implementation may be the latter.
Rangers - whole cloth. A character class built specifically so people could play Aragorn.
Orcs -as the original green pig-faced orcs are taken directly from the images of the Brothers Hildbrandt and those are directly from Tolkien.
Hobgoblins - Tolkien's Uruk-hai are, arguably, the D&D Hobgoblin. More human-sized, more organized, more militant, more deadly than your run of the mill "goblin." The temptation, to say they are the "Half-Orc" is understandable given their description of being a mix of goblins and evil men...but, like the Half-Elf, I think this is a case of using the term for one concept/idea in the game, and the actual Tolkien creatures/characters, for another. So, my money says the DD&D Hobgoblin is the Tolkien-inspired monsters who tracked down the Fellowship and kidnapped Merry & Pippin.
Giant Spiders.
Giant/intelligent/speaking Eagles.
Giant/Evil/intelligent Wolves a.k.a. Worgs or Wargs.
Werebears - Bjorn.
Goblins that ride worgs/wolves.
Balrogs - a.k.a. "Balrochs" a.k.a. "Type VI" Demons. The wings, the lightning sword, the flaming scourge whip, direct pull. The use of the name "Balor" is actually from the evil king of the Formorians in Irish mythology (who only had 1 eye and I am fairly sure is the basis of D&D's orc deity "Gruumsh." But that would not be Tolkien's doing.)
Treants - are Ents (as noted multiple times, already). Full stop.
Wraiths - totally forgot the Wraiths.
Wights - arguable, but inclusion of the Barrow Wight, like the Ringwraiths, even if wights & wraiths themselves have other folklore and myth behind them, Tolkien's Wight being found in a barrow (burial mound/chambers) and having a corporeal nature (unlike the wraiths) is his own.
Items & Places:
Ring of Invisibility
Crystal Balls w/Hypnosis
Elvin Cloaks/Boots
Weapons that do more damage/special powers against specific foes: While magic swords in fantasy myth and literature are hardly unique to Tolkien, the idea of Sting, Orcrist, Glamdring, -as magic swords that were made to kill goblins & orcs and, so, by extension the swords with extra damage vs. lycanthropes or magic-users, etc... is specifically Tolkien.
Arguably various wizard/mage staffs. Arguably the Robe of Scintillating Colors from Saruman (though I think Joseph's Many-colored Jacket takes the credit for the basis of both).
Wizard Towers- While not a definite, I may be stretching, but the concept of Wizards in/building/using Towers as their strongholds (in Basic/BECM) from Orthanc.
The very concept of the Dungeon Crawl & Wilderness Adventure are straight out of The Hobbit and LotR - Putting together a band of companions to go a'venturing, versus the individual Hero undertaking a quest of most of the literature of the time, is pure Tolkien: the Mines of Moria, the trek to the Lonely Mountain (i.e. the ENTIRE Hobbit), having to cross paths and interact with different NPCs and creatures, engage in diplomacy and -of course- combat. More than the simple "Hero's Quest" narrative found throughout literature and mythology, the D&D "Adventure" owes a great deal of its episodic nature to Tolkien, and I would add in Howard and Leiber (Moorcock, to me, falls more into the typical Hero's Journey of much Swords & Sorcery style tales).
Characters & Creatures:
Halflings -obvs.
Elves - Pretty much everything about D&D elves as a player character race and as their original incarnation as a race-class capable of both weapons and magic. Both the general description, size, interests/culture and the specific breakdown of "High" vs. "Wood" vs. "Grey" (mistakenly referred to in the films as the "high elves" of Gondolin. I believe the shining blond-haired with violet eyes "Fairies", as Gygax first refers to them in the MM, is based from Galadriel, and Elrond references them -at least in the films as far as I recall though don't remember if it's in the books- as his "kin"). Also, as elsewhere mentioned here, the antagonism between elves and dwarves is distinctly drawn from Tolkien.
Dwarves - This is something of a mish-mosh of Tolkien and his knowledge/appreciation for Anglo-Saxon and Norse mythologies (and others, of course, that he used for other elements). But their size, ever bearded (including the females) appearance, axe-wielding, goblin/orc fighting selves -and the elf antagonism- strikes me as specifically Tolkien. Their giant-fighting, their mining and smithing/crafting skill, love of gold/precious metals are distinctly from the [Norse/Germanic] mythological base.
Half-elves - whether the D&D Half-elf is intended to mirror Elrond (Tolkien's true "half-elf") or Aragorn (a "man" who has some extra magic/knowledge/nobility in his bloodline). The term certainly, comes from the former, while I think the concept/image/implementation may be the latter.
Rangers - whole cloth. A character class built specifically so people could play Aragorn.
Orcs -as the original green pig-faced orcs are taken directly from the images of the Brothers Hildbrandt and those are directly from Tolkien.
Hobgoblins - Tolkien's Uruk-hai are, arguably, the D&D Hobgoblin. More human-sized, more organized, more militant, more deadly than your run of the mill "goblin." The temptation, to say they are the "Half-Orc" is understandable given their description of being a mix of goblins and evil men...but, like the Half-Elf, I think this is a case of using the term for one concept/idea in the game, and the actual Tolkien creatures/characters, for another. So, my money says the DD&D Hobgoblin is the Tolkien-inspired monsters who tracked down the Fellowship and kidnapped Merry & Pippin.
Giant Spiders.
Giant/intelligent/speaking Eagles.
Giant/Evil/intelligent Wolves a.k.a. Worgs or Wargs.
Werebears - Bjorn.
Goblins that ride worgs/wolves.
Balrogs - a.k.a. "Balrochs" a.k.a. "Type VI" Demons. The wings, the lightning sword, the flaming scourge whip, direct pull. The use of the name "Balor" is actually from the evil king of the Formorians in Irish mythology (who only had 1 eye and I am fairly sure is the basis of D&D's orc deity "Gruumsh." But that would not be Tolkien's doing.)
Treants - are Ents (as noted multiple times, already). Full stop.
Wraiths - totally forgot the Wraiths.
Wights - arguable, but inclusion of the Barrow Wight, like the Ringwraiths, even if wights & wraiths themselves have other folklore and myth behind them, Tolkien's Wight being found in a barrow (burial mound/chambers) and having a corporeal nature (unlike the wraiths) is his own.
Items & Places:
Ring of Invisibility
Crystal Balls w/Hypnosis
Elvin Cloaks/Boots
Weapons that do more damage/special powers against specific foes: While magic swords in fantasy myth and literature are hardly unique to Tolkien, the idea of Sting, Orcrist, Glamdring, -as magic swords that were made to kill goblins & orcs and, so, by extension the swords with extra damage vs. lycanthropes or magic-users, etc... is specifically Tolkien.
Arguably various wizard/mage staffs. Arguably the Robe of Scintillating Colors from Saruman (though I think Joseph's Many-colored Jacket takes the credit for the basis of both).
Wizard Towers- While not a definite, I may be stretching, but the concept of Wizards in/building/using Towers as their strongholds (in Basic/BECM) from Orthanc.
The very concept of the Dungeon Crawl & Wilderness Adventure are straight out of The Hobbit and LotR - Putting together a band of companions to go a'venturing, versus the individual Hero undertaking a quest of most of the literature of the time, is pure Tolkien: the Mines of Moria, the trek to the Lonely Mountain (i.e. the ENTIRE Hobbit), having to cross paths and interact with different NPCs and creatures, engage in diplomacy and -of course- combat. More than the simple "Hero's Quest" narrative found throughout literature and mythology, the D&D "Adventure" owes a great deal of its episodic nature to Tolkien, and I would add in Howard and Leiber (Moorcock, to me, falls more into the typical Hero's Journey of much Swords & Sorcery style tales).
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Sacrosanct
Legend
OK, sorry to be pedantic, but this is bothering me. This is exactly what I (and others) mean when we say we are crediting Tolkien for things he didn't create.
Giant eagles were not his idea. The rukk (roc) is an Arabic myth, and a pretty popular one at that. Even down to the "rescuing sailors by carrying them away" part.
Giant spiders? Giant any animals have been around for eons. Just making a giant nasty animal giant doesn't mean he came up with it.
Were-bears. lycanthropy as a concept existed for thousands of years. And wasn't just wolves. It was largely regional. For example, lycanthropes in Asia were leopards or tigers. So the idea of shapechanging into an apex predator is one that has been around for a long time
Wights. Go play Skyrim. Ok, that's a bit tongue in cheek, but it's an example we're probably all familiar with where the concept of undead wights fighting living men has been around for centuries.
The point is, is that almost everything Tolkien did was pulled directly from other existing myths, many of them with very little variation. We know Gary pulled the exact same inspiration. So while there are clearly Tolkien creations ported into D&D, it's not nearly as much as people are crediting him for.
Giant eagles were not his idea. The rukk (roc) is an Arabic myth, and a pretty popular one at that. Even down to the "rescuing sailors by carrying them away" part.
Giant spiders? Giant any animals have been around for eons. Just making a giant nasty animal giant doesn't mean he came up with it.
Were-bears. lycanthropy as a concept existed for thousands of years. And wasn't just wolves. It was largely regional. For example, lycanthropes in Asia were leopards or tigers. So the idea of shapechanging into an apex predator is one that has been around for a long time
Wights. Go play Skyrim. Ok, that's a bit tongue in cheek, but it's an example we're probably all familiar with where the concept of undead wights fighting living men has been around for centuries.
The point is, is that almost everything Tolkien did was pulled directly from other existing myths, many of them with very little variation. We know Gary pulled the exact same inspiration. So while there are clearly Tolkien creations ported into D&D, it's not nearly as much as people are crediting him for.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Except that as many of keep saying it's not whether he created or invented these things, but whether he popularized them to the point where they would get included in an RPG.
Giant eagles vs. rocs I don't know. Maybe the original D&D would have included them, maybe not. I think magical rings are a better example: Even though Tolkien simply had to have been inspired by the Nibelungen, I'm skeptical Wagner would have been an important influence in the absence of Tolkien.
On the Wight issue, I am interested/curious how much of the shift in the meaning of the term was due to tolkien. Originally it simply meant "person". E.g. "Barrow person". How much was Tolkien responsible for the undead connotation? Anybody know? Where's Tolwen when you need him...
Yeah, again, the question isn't whether he invented these ideas but whether they would have made it into D&D without his influence.
Celebrim
Legend
Sorry, to be pedantic, but your examples are absurd.
The 'Roc' exists as a separate entry in the D&D monster manual. That in itself should be sufficient to address your point. While Tolkien obviously did not create the idea of a giant bird, he did create the idea of a basically good aligned, beast of roughly that size that would bear a rider, but not large enough to bear away say an elephant. No one is arguing that the 'Roc' entry in the Monster Manual is from Tolkien, nor would anyone creditably argue that the Roc of the '1001 Tales of the Arabian Nights' is the inspiration for Tolkien's giant eagles.
In some cases Gary pulled from the same sources as Tolkien, but in most cases there is textual evidence linking the stuff I've cited directly back to Tolkien and in many cases there are elements of the game element that exist in D&D that are only found in Tolkien and not in the source material. It's obvious for example that only in Tolkien is a hobgoblin an orc-like creature and not a malicious fairy. If you want the full evidence that this stuff is from Tolkien, please read 'Playing at the World' were the textual evidence and footnotes and citations are given.
Celebrim
Legend
William Morris is responsible for Tolkien by translating Draug as "barrow wight". But it's almost 100% certain that Tolkien is responsible for D&D's usage of the term, and not William Morris. Tolkien was vastly more recognizable than Morris in the 1950's and 1960's, and even had someone been familiar with both works they almost certainly would have encountered Tolkien first.
