Which Prc for the Paladin?

[Thanee]

Contemplative is a good PrC (the roleplay requirement shouldn't be hard to fulfill for a Cleric, isn't that automatically the case for them (to be in direct contact with their deity)? ), but anyways, it does not qualify for the above.

Yes the requirements are low, but it has worse hit points, BAB and saves, so does hardly "grant almost all of the benefits of the original class".

Cleric PrC are always a tradeoff, that's what I'm saying, not that there are none, which might be great for a given concept (altho even those are pretty rare).

Bye
Thanee

 

[reapersaurus]

IMO, the Hospitaler is one of the most powerful PrC out there. The only reason not to take it is the loss of mount progression, and I can't see that as enough of a drawback. YMMV.

Whoa there.
You misunderstood my point.

I'm not saying the Hospitaler isn't a powerful PrC - are you kidding? I've used it, and it is.
I'm not saying that a Paladin couldn't use the Hospitaler levels to good effect.

I'm saying that it is not a Paladin PrC, since it does not continue the abilities that define a Paladin. Turn Undead and Lay on Hands (healing) are not the defining abilities of a paldin.
Therefore, Hospitaler is not a Paladin PrC.

 

[Thanee]

What are the defining abilities of the Paladin? The Mount?

Bye
Thanee

 

[reapersaurus]

Thanee -
a) why should clerics get a PrC that good, when they are arguably the most powerful class already? One could make a case that the Cleric already is as strong as other PrC's, so they don't need a power-up. The Paladin class DOES.
BADLY.
b) I take back my "low entrance requirements" requirement for a Paladin PrC. The cost of entry is not the issue, it's what they get if they take it, and what they have to give up.
c) There are many Cleric PrC's that do provide most of the benefits of the cleric class (plus more): Hospitaler, Sacred Exorcist, Radiant Servant of Pelor, Contemplative...
I didn't say the PrC needed to be better in every way. Just advance the primary strengths of the class, and provide more benefits to warrant the expenditure of the entrance requirements.
No Paladin PrC currently does this (save perhaps the Mithral Knight).
Let me repeat that: there is currently no official or unofficial WotC PrC that is worth taking for a paladin that wants to continue in the defining abilities of a paladin.

I consider that a blatant oversight.
They've had time. They've had the opportunity. I've been waiting 3 years.
By this time, I have to conclude that this is purposeful : WotC has unofficially decided that the Paladin is a quasi-PrC base class. Therefore, they apparently shouldn't have an "uber-Paladin" PrC the way there are for many other classes. Otherwise, it would bite into the pedastal they put the Paladin on, as a champion of Good.
Here's the problem with that approach:
The Paladin is too weak to be put on a pedastal.
It needs help to accomplish its role: that of a butt-kicking dispenser of Justice.
It can't accomplish that role COMPARED to other classes and class combinations.
It is a defensive class - its abilities enhance defense, not offense. It sacrifices offensive abilities (i.e. Ftr feats) to gain weak spellcasting, one-shot offensive (Smite), and defense. Really, a Paladins' best offense is probably his mount, and that is hard to quantify, being very situation-dependant.

 

[reapersaurus]

What are the defining abilities of the Paladin? The Mount?

As I mentioned, the defining abilities of a Paladin are:

Smite advancement
Mount advancement
Spell advancement (as weak as his spell advancement is)
Lay On Hands

Yes, I'm waffling somewhat on the "Lay on Hands" as a defining ability.
LEt me put it this way:
Thematically, it's a defining Paladin ability.
Power and uniqueness wise, it isn't. This is because a Cleric and Druid's's Cure spells are SOOO much stronger, and healing is not unique to the Paladin.

 

[Thanee]

a) why should clerics get a PrC that good, when they are arguably the most powerful class already?

I don't think, I asked for that.

One could make a case that the Cleric already is as strong as other PrC's, so they don't need a power-up. The Paladin class DOES.
BADLY.

Yes, Paladins are lacking in this area, but I don't agree, that Paladins are weak. Actually in 3.0 they were the most powerful fighter class, now they are probably tied with the Ranger after the huge powerup.

You don't need any more offense, than what the Paladin got. Sure they can't compare to spellcasters at higher levels, noone can, but their defensive abilities are what makes them the best fighters, as staying in the fight adds a lot of damage potential.

The Paladin is too weak to be put on a pedastal.
It needs help to accomplish its role: that of a butt-kicking dispenser of Justice.
It can't accomplish that role COMPARED to other classes and class combinations.
It is a defensive class - its abilities enhance defense, not offense.

I also don't really see, why a Paladin must be the huge uber damage dealer. The focus on the defensive does fit the class very well, to resist temptations, and to stay on their righteous way, etc. The defensive abilities are what defines the Paladin mostly.

And speaking of damage... the Fighter's Weapon Specialization (and even Greater Weapon Specialization) is way weaker than the Paladin's Divine Might!

That doesn't say anything about the lack of suitable Paladin PrC, tho.

c) There are many Cleric PrC's that do provide most of the benefits of the cleric class (plus more): Hospitaler, Sacred Exorcist, Radiant Servant of Pelor, Contemplative...

Hospitaler... are you kidding? NO spellcasting progression!!!
Sacred Exorcist... Ok, that one offers quite a bit admittedly, altho it's application is very limited like most DotF PrC.
Radiant Servant of Pelor... I don't know that... Dragon?
Contemplative... see post above.

Therefore, they apparently shouldn't have an "uber-Paladin" PrC the way there are for many other classes.

Those "uber PrC" (I admit, there are some) are bad anyways. PrC shouldn't just be better, they should mainly be different, focusing on some strengths, while neglecting others, providing a kind of specialization, or enhance the background.

Some PrC do this, some don't.

Bye
Thanee

 

[reapersaurus]

You don't need any more offense, than what the Paladin got.

I also don't really see, why a Paladin must be the huge uber damage dealer. The focus on the defensive does fit the class very well, to resist temptations, and to stay on their righteous way, etc. The defensive abilities are what defines the Paladin mostly.

Those "uber PrC" (I admit, there are some) are bad anyways. PrC shouldn't just be better, they should mainly be different, focusing on some strengths, while neglecting others, providing a kind of specialization, or enhance the background.

Some PrC do this, some don't.

SHOULD, or should NOT, it doesn't change the fact that many PrC's DO give these benefits to other classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Ftr, Druid (IIRC), Rogue (IIC)), yet none do to the Paladin.

Divine Might is not a Paladin feat - many people believe it is, but that's not the case. A Clr or a Ftr/Clr can benefit just as much. And given realistic CHA scores, unless Divine Might is a free action, than it's not nearly as effective as people fear.

Hospitaler gets full spellcasting progression, AFAIK.
Radiant Servant is in Dragon 283. An official source.

Paladins are not characterized by their defensive capabilities, I strongly disagree.
Most everyone I know defines a Paladin as the dispenser of justice to those who do Evil - he's the guy that puts his life on the line to protect the innocent, and SMITE EVIL.
Smite Evil (and the problematic mount) are the only offensive abilities he has - he needs a LOT more offense than that, to be considered "THE Smacker-Down of Evil", as is the prevalent (and misguided) thought regarding Paladins.

Unless the Paladin does THE MOST damage to Evil on a consistent basis (i.e. more than any other class or class combo), than I submit that the class is not fulfilling its designed role.

 

[Ketjak]

Unless the Paladin does THE MOST damage to Evil on a consistent basis (i.e. more than any other class or class combo), than I submit that the class is not fulfilling its designed role.

I would much rather see the Paladin treating evil similarly to a favored enemy. That is, across-the-board damage and skill enhancements. Given the myriad evil critters an adventuring party faces, probably not the same degree as what Rangers get for their favored enemies.

I can see Prestige Classes rewarding Paladins for specializing in hating & killing different types of evil critters. Poetic and inspiring names like Demon Hunters, Devil Banes, Undead Stalkers, Righteous Cleansers (vs. evil humanoids) and so on come to mind.

The Mithril Knight is a nice Paladin PrC, as it adds a few abilities that further define it in terms of the world and the Paladin's god. It continues Paladin spell, turning, mount, and lay on hands progression and requires BAB +6, Weapon Focus (longsword), Craft (weaponsmithing) 8, Diplomacy 5, Knowledge (religion) 5.

Hmm, it's OGC. Perhaps I'll post it.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Hospitaler gets full spellcasting progression, AFAIK.

They do indeed. The get +1 spellcasting level in existing class. If you have no existing spellcaster class then I don't think you gain spellcasting. Not sure how the domains work.

Here's the errata link. Oddly, it's not on Wizards.com.

http://www.dndadventure.com/html/articles/errata_defenders_of_the_faith.html

-z

 

[Thanee]

Oh, that makes the class quite a bit better, I must agree!

It's actually quite nice for a Paladin then (and obviously also meant to be a Paladin PrC on second glance).

Bye
Thanee