Which system for a Star Wars game?

[Sunglar]

I really must find that FATAL/Star Wars adaptation! Sounds like fun… Jejeje!

Diggus, I agree with you in that the magic, at least for me, is the feeling that in Star Wars you are seeing a grand vision, a great adventure, the hero’s journey (call it what you may!) set in a great, vast canvas, of which we see just a little part.

I think that is why the Expanded Universe has proven so popular and why the West End Games guys had such success in expanding the mythos early on, continued by the comics, console/computer games! (I know the Marvel comics came before WEG and I love them, but they were so limited in scope as far as what they could do that what they managed was impressive, still… I know somebody will not agree with this!)

That said eyebeams I think makes an excellent point as to what we see in the movies. A casual observer, the person that just sees the movie and has no exposure to the expanded universe, gets exactly that idea of Jedi infallibility. Lucas relies too much in the expanded universe to fill in the Star Wars experience (here I’m going back to a previous argument I made!). I realize there are a LOT of fans out there, and he is just using the tools he has to market his product and make the most money. Nothing wrong with that!

However the films themselves, the pure art form of cinema (there may not be such a thing I realize, but indulge me here for a minute!) suffers due to the fact that you get only a sketch of a much richer (Complex? Satisfying?) picture.

The original trilogy was grand story, but we got ALL we need to understand the plot in the movies themselves. Arguably I think we did not get that on the prequels.

(Soapbox is put away now I promise!)

eyebeam, I REALLY like that list you made of what we know of the Jedi form the prequels. Can you or anyone else come up with a similar list but JUST from the original movies? I think our perception of the Jedi is vastly different from just the original movies. I’m seeing the movies again (for the third time tomorrow) with a note pad, so I can jot down what we DO know about what happened before the movies, trying to filter out the knowledge form seeing the prequels.

One last thing, Ranger that would ROCK! A Tarentino Star Wars! Or even better, just like they did for CSI when they got him to direct an episode, have him do a NEW Christmas Special! I only have one request; it MUST have Bea Arthur singing!

 

[eyebeams]

eyebeams, are you saying a SW game should be limited to the content seen in the movies?

I always saw the flicks as presenting a small segement of the galaxy far far away.

The EU has so many different hands in the pot that once you accept it, I don't think you can coherently talk about what Star Wars is. I mean, think about what Jedi would be like if we used Clone Wars as a model! Even the movies are inconsistent for the sake of filmcraft. Lots of people point to ATOC as evidence that Jedi aren't that hot, but really, I think the filmmakers just realized that having Jedi jump around in large numbers would look very silly, like locusts with glowsticks in wide shots -- and would be expensive, too.

What you have to ultimately think of is what you think of when you think of *playing* a Jedi and being cool --and that usually ends up looking something like Obi-Wan, who's the closest thing to a PC-type the series has (Anakin's the actual protagonist, but he loses PC status partway through -- maybe he's a walkon part for a player that the GM revives for plot points later). You see him "level up," even -- and the GM recycles him as an NPC in the next trilogy/campaign. Aside from that, you have Luke as a PC type, but he's definitely a multiclassed type of pilot before committing to his training in ROTJ. ESB is actually interesting because Luke has some d20 style traits; his force powers are not spectacular, but you can see how his experience outside Jedi training helps him. Basically, his Pilot ranks, BAB and saves are heroic, though his absolute experience with the Force is not that extensive.

 

[Aus_Snow]

True20.

 

[ValhallaGH]

In any event, the argument that Jedi level up as adolescents always struck me as disingenuous, since few people are going to play 12 year old 1st level Jedi.

They shouldn't either. 1st level Jedi are age seven.
By age 12, Jedi are around level 5 and ready to become a Padawan.
By age 20, most Jedi are Jedi knights and have achieved level 10 or 12.
By the time a typical Old Republic Jedi is worthy of Master status, they would be about level 18. By level 18, any character should be able to give an entire army a run for it's money.

Really, what we know from the movies is that a trained Jedi (or Sith) is:

1) Better than almost any number of average troops, including battledroids.

2) Equal to shielded destroyer droids, *squads* of clones and giant monsters.

3) In the movies, there are purpose-built droids that truly exceptional characters that might beat a Jedi in single combat. We've got one or two bounty hunters, General Grievous, (maybe) his droid guards.

4) Known to be so bad*ss that when Darth Maul shows up, an entire platoon on Naboo decides to take the long way around instead of go through him.

5) Known to be so bad*ss that the Trade Federation is frightened of having 2 Jedi visit them, and terrified when Darth Maul is revealed.

6) Known to be so bad*ss that nobody talks about sending a horde of clones to kill Count Dooku, because that wouldn't be reliable.

Good list. Now please name one thing on it that can't be done by simply being six levels higher than most people expect, and having a lightsaber (the most bad*ss melee weapon in fiction).

Time for a change of topic.

iwat I see some people have taken the route you suggest, letting some levels in other classes apply to the Adept when they cast. Is this necessary, are they otherwise underpowered? Eyebean that is true a Jedi created using the Adept class will have the available power limited to better reflect what a Jedi could be. This is the rute taken by those that have already done the adaptation.

The True20 roles are extremely well balanced. Each role (class) is as powerful as the other roles and this balance is maintained even with multi-role characters; no, that's not common for level based systems and speaks well of the underlying mechanics of True20.
So no, you do not need to count other levels as Adept levels to maintain balance and power. That option is available for people that want to make Jedi more powerful but it is not necessary.

If you wish to spend some time reading over my conversion or reading up on Ether's conversion, then I'd recommend doing so. The rules involved don't make much sense unless you're vaguely familiar with the underlying True20 system but you've already got that book.
The only change I made was the introduction of some feats to make Jedi characters more effective in melee combat. These aren't a new mechanic, merely a continuation of an existing mechanic to allow even more options.

 

[Ranger REG]

One last thing, Ranger that would ROCK! A Tarentino Star Wars! Or even better, just like they did for CSI when they got him to direct an episode, have him do a NEW Christmas Special! I only have one request; it MUST have Bea Arthur singing!

Meh. That Tarentino-directed CSI episode is not suited for Star Wars.

I prefer the Alias episode he guest-starred in.

If anything, I want him to remove the romanticism of the Lucas's films.

 

[Diggus Rex]

Diggus, I agree with you in that the magic, at least for me, is the feeling that in Star Wars you are seeing a grand vision, a great adventure, the hero’s journey (call it what you may!) set in a great, vast canvas, of which we see just a little part.

I communicated all that with the second sentence, i'm a better writer than I thought

The EU has so many different hands in the pot that once you accept it, I don't think you can coherently talk about what Star Wars is.

Very true, and some of the EU is crap.

Newcomer to my pre-prequel camp said he wanted to be a veteran of the Jedi Civil War from KotOR (a rip off of the Sith War). Never heard of it, but it would ruin the consistency of my narrative. I told him to make his character while I researched. My camp was 122 BBY, this civil war crap was nearly 4,000 BBY, the fibber. Confronted him, he pled mistaken but wanted his non-Jedi character to be an expert on the period. Nope, the Council suppressed those archives (Knowledge Jedi Lore DC 35, Jedi level 13+ to access). It fit cause my Council was like the Vatican bureaucratically, which Lucas kinda confirmed with their attitudes in RotS.

What you have to ultimately think of is what you think of when you think of *playing* a Jedi and being cool --and that usually ends up looking something like Obi-Wan, who's the closest thing to a PC-type the series has ...

Perhaps usual for your experience, but I encourage high creativity from the Star Wars theme, not SW characterization. Jedi's A) have lightsabers, B) are "good" guys that follow a Code, C) use the Force. That's it. From this a player can derive a multitude of concepts -- for which Obi Wan doesnt even describe the mean -- and all fitting the description "Cool".

 

[eyebeams]

They shouldn't either. 1st level Jedi are age seven.
By age 12, Jedi are around level 5 and ready to become a Padawan.
By age 20, most Jedi are Jedi knights and have achieved level 10 or 12.
By the time a typical Old Republic Jedi is worthy of Master status, they would be about level 18. By level 18, any character should be able to give an entire army a run for it's money.

Unfortunately, the problem is the flipside of the 12 year old Jedi. How do you integrate them into low level parties? Making adult Jedi mid-level characters around 1st level adults simulates the movies but is poorly structured for balanced parties, unless you make everyone equally competent heroes.

Good list. Now please name one thing on it that can't be done by simply being six levels higher than most people expect, and having a lightsaber (the most bad*ss melee weapon in fiction).

Any of the above in a balanced low level party. Plus, boosting everybody's level kicks some antagonists to truly silly power levels. If Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS are levels 13 and 16, respectively (talented padawan rushed master), General Grievous and his bodyguards need to be slinging dozens of levels around to be plausible antagonists. That's kind of an inelegant solution. Plus, are shielded Droideka's really the equivalent of 15th level antagonists? It simply inflates everything. Plus, it lacks verisimilitude, in that young Obi-Wan and Anakin are not wise beyond their years. They're young doofuses who make mistakes.

The things that non-Jedi have over Jedi skillwise are:
* Social influence beyond being bad*ss and mental suggestion.
* Complex tech/med/repair skills.
* Reliable ability with blasters (as opposed to surprise/lucky shots).
* Wealth
* Skill piloting anything bigger than a fighter.
* Larcenous skills.

But the big thing non-Jedi have, that D6 SW represented very well, is that they are:
* Lucky.
* Can be heroes without special complications.

Now in D6 this worked because Jedi had the Force invested in specific abilities and heroes just used it to get out of sticky situations. D6 was a bit broad with the temptation of the Dark Side. In the movies, it was obviously a subtext for everybody, but Jedi always had the deepest risks when it came to the Dark Side.

I think Adventure!'s Dramatic Editing could work well as the basis for this kind of Force system. Han Solo types use it to get the first shot and do all kinds of uncanny things or just get lucky, but Jedi are hardwired into a more potent but less morally flexible or wildly lucky path.

 

[eyebeams]

Perhaps usual for your experience, but I encourage high creativity from the Star Wars theme, not SW characterization. Jedi's A) have lightsabers, B) are "good" guys that follow a Code, C) use the Force. That's it. From this a player can derive a multitude of concepts -- for which Obi Wan doesnt even describe the mean -- and all fitting the description "Cool".

Well, that's all well and good for individual games, but when it comes to the archetypal Jedi from the films, it doesn't get any closer than Obi-Wan. Anakin's unnaturally gifted, Luke's training is crippled (and he's unnaturally talented) and everybody else either doesn't appear through all three stages of their careers or is only developed in EU material. If a game is going to mirror the setting of the movies, there really is no more solid a reference, even if individuals can play against it. And we know because of him that a Jedi can cut in half someone an entire platoon of blaster-armed combatants led by another PC would avoid (well, Obi-Wan probably used the Dark Side for that last bit IMO, but still). That's a real game design issue there. You can definitely choose to downplay it or tweak it to the "reality" of the game (Clone Wars Jedi are extraordinarily powerful, while in Timothy Zahn's books the Force is totally subordinate to being impressed over the author's military SF Mary Sue character) though.

 

[Sunglar]

Hello all…

Valhalla, thanks again for the links, I read both adaptations. I was just asking to get a general idea of what other people thought about making other levels count towards Adept casting. I’ll trust you True20-Fu!

Diggus see all you told me with your writing! Kudos, jejeje!

Valhalla nice age to level distribution as presented by the prequels, but I don’t see any of my players playing a seven year old (they might behave like that sometimes! Hope they are not lurking about!)

I hope that by using True20, or the Saga rules if I like them when they come out, I can offer my PCS balanced Jedis! Remember that for the game I am planning I will NOT be referencing the prequels as a starting point!

 

[iwatt]

Unfortunately, the problem is the flipside of the 12 year old Jedi. How do you integrate them into low level parties? Making adult Jedi mid-level characters around 1st level adults simulates the movies but is poorly structured for balanced parties, unless you make everyone equally competent heroes.

why are you making the other characters level 1? Han was a famous smuggler in one of the fastest ships in the galaxy. Chewie was a veteran warrior of the clone wars. Leia was an experienced diplomat. Don't get me started on R2

In the RCR, jedi's can become Knights at level 7 IIRC, not before.

Level 1 adventures involve going out to shoot wampa rats. That's about the level of expertise they have.

If Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS are levels 13 and 16, respectively (talented padawan rushed master), General Grievous and his bodyguards need to be slinging dozens of levels around to be plausible antagonists.

Actually, Grievous is the only one that really has to be powerful. It's not like the guards really do anything but slow down Obi-Wan. And Grievous has all the right to be high level (he hunts jedi for god's sake).

Valhalla nice age to level distribution as presented by the prequels, but I don’t see any of my players playing a seven year old

Well, that is tied into how they're presented in the prequels. If you're dead set on starting at level 1, maybe you could have them start as "slow" students You know, those with difficulty managaing their anger or emotions, or those with some kind of mental block.