D&D 5E Which version of the Favoured Soul do you like best?

[Thurmas]

Is it a good thing that the common folk don't know that sorcerers aren't interchangeable with wizards? This looks like a matter of taste to me: players who want sorcerers to stand out may find themselves dissatisfied with the current Sorcerer class and want the Favored Soul to be obviously something else, while players who find the current Sorcerer class sufficiently distinct from the Wizard class may wonder what the fuss is about.

I don't like any of the current Sorcerer subclasses. I think the only other class I can say that for is the ranger.

I think this is part of the driving force for me to get the FS where I want it.

These are both good ideas:

How about giving neither of the domain spells as "extra spells known," but giving both of them as "additions to the Sorcerer spell list for you?" That way, those spells are available to be known by the individual Favored Soul, but no individual Favored Soul has more spells known than other sorcerers.

No, dangit: I need to edit the above for sense. hang on. . . .
Edit to add: As mentioned upthread, many of the Cleric Domains contain Sorcerer spells. In light of that, maybe the Favored Soul needs to have its own, dedicated list of Sorcerer Domains that are made largely of spells from the Cleric spell list. If the Sorcerer gets as much emphasis as the Cleric in terms of having distinct spell lists (even if added to the Sorcerer list for the individual sorcerer), then the Sorcerer class might seem less derivative of other classes.
Edit again: That was poorly worded, wasn't it? Of course if the Favored Soul gets Cleric spells, then it is derivative of the Cleric class to some extent; but what I should have said, I think, is that the Favored Soul would then have almost enough differentiaion by faith, one from another.

Individual choice is good, agreed.

This is what I was trying to get at in the UA Revised Classes thread. I said this:

I like a domain spell approach, but I don't see any reason why it has to be tied to the Cleric Domains. Just give the class a list of domains to choose from in a similar format to the Circle of the Land Druid. They can be separated by alignment (lawful spell group, chaotic spell group, etc), by concept (war, fey, healing, etc), or by deity (Bane, Mystra, Helm, etc), or anything else.

I also tend to find the sorcerer underwhelming. I have enough trouble trying to build one even in theory and be happy with the spells known. If I add cleric spells to the mix and try to make what I want from a spells known point of view I can't even get close, and that's if I only add 3 or so cleric spells. I think domains are a great way to do that. I realize that it probably does unbalance the FS in regards to other sorcerer subclasses, but I think that goes back to them being underwhelming as a class. Compared to other 5E classes I think the sorcerer lags behind and this would not overbalance it compared to them.

 

[gyor]

Here is a example human FS.

At level 1 Divine Magic, Favour of the Gods, spells known Cure Wounds, Chromotic Orb, Command, Cantrips (I prefer the term Orisons for divine cantrips) Firebolt, Guidance, Spare the Dying, Minor Illusion Feat: Ritual Casting: Wizard (rituals Find Familiar and Unseen Servant), familiar: Celestial Cat.

Level 6: Font of Magic, Flexible Casting, Metamagic (twin spell, quicken spell) Empowered Healing, spells known: Mage Armour, Major Image, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Revify, Spirit Guardians. Cantrips known: Sacred Flame, Light, Bladeward Feat: Magic Innaite Sorceror. (6 sorcery points)

Level 14: +4 Charisma, Angelic Form (Spectral Wings), Metamagic Extend Spell, Spells Known: Animate Objects, Mass Cure Wounds, Polymorphic, Planeshift, Heal, Conjure Celestial. Cantrips Known: Mending. (14 sorcery points)

Level 18: Unearthly Recovery, Metamagic: Distant Spell, Feat: Ritual Caster: Cleric (Ceremonial Ritual, Guiding Hand rites), Spells Known: HDominate Monster, Wish. (18 sorcery points)

Level 20: Feat: Warcaster, Sorcerous Restoration. (20 sorcery points)

Can you honestly tell me this isn't a character with both power and versatility? 17 spells known, 8 cantrips, 4 metamagics to modify the spells (really 5 with Empowered Healing), both Wizard and Cleric rituals, a cat familiar for spying and delivering healing and damage spells, at will flight. And really in practice it's more then 17 spells because you can use spells in higher slots.

So in comparison to 3e you have Minor, Lesser, Moderate, Greater and so on Cure Wounds, with Chromatic Orb you have Fire Orbs, Frost Orbs, Acid Orbs, Thunder Orbs (sound), Lightening Orbs, Poison Orbs x9 levels, x3 different metamagics for really 162 spells.

Major Image becomes Permanent image in a level 6 slot.

Spirit Guardians deal more damage the higher the slot you put it in, up to 9D8 per turn in a 9th level slot.

A twinned cantrip is like a 1st level spell.

And Wish can be any spell of 8th level or lower you want.

 

[MoonSong]

Here is a example human FS.

At level 1 Divine Magic, Favour of the Gods, spells known Cure Wounds, Chromotic Orb, Command, Cantrips (I prefer the term Orisons for divine cantrips) Firebolt, Guidance, Spare the Dying, Minor Illusion Feat: Ritual Casting: Wizard (rituals Find Familiar and Unseen Servant), familiar: Celestial Cat.

Level 6: Font of Magic, Flexible Casting, Metamagic (twin spell, quicken spell) Empowered Healing, spells known: Mage Armour, Major Image, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Revify, Spirit Guardians. Cantrips known: Sacred Flame, Light, Bladeward Feat: Magic Innaite Sorceror. (6 sorcery points)

Level 14: +4 Charisma, Angelic Form (Spectral Wings), Metamagic Extend Spell, Spells Known: Animate Objects, Mass Cure Wounds, Polymorphic, Planeshift, Heal, Conjure Celestial. Cantrips Known: Mending. (14 sorcery points)

Level 18: Unearthly Recovery, Metamagic: Distant Spell, Feat: Ritual Caster: Cleric (Ceremonial Ritual, Guiding Hand rites), Spells Known: HDominate Monster, Wish. (18 sorcery points)

Level 20: Feat: Warcaster, Sorcerous Restoration. (20 sorcery points)

Can you honestly tell me this isn't a character with both power and versatility? 17 spells known, 8 cantrips, 4 metamagics to modify the spells (really 5 with Empowered Healing), both Wizard and Cleric rituals, a cat familiar for spying and delivering healing and damage spells, at will flight. And really in practice it's more then 17 spells because you can use spells in higher slots.

So in comparison to 3e you have Minor, Lesser, Moderate, Greater and so on Cure Wounds, with Chromatic Orb you have Fire Orbs, Frost Orbs, Acid Orbs, Thunder Orbs (sound), Lightening Orbs, Poison Orbs x9 levels, x3 different metamagics for really 162 spells.

Major Image becomes Permanent image in a level 6 slot.

Spirit Guardians deal more damage the higher the slot you put it in, up to 9D8 per turn in a 9th level slot.

A twinned cantrip is like a 1st level spell.

And Wish can be any spell of 8th level or lower you want.

The spellbook is a turn off though...

 

[MoonSong]

I don't like any of the current Sorcerer subclasses. I think the only other class I can say that for is the ranger.

I think this is part of the driving force for me to get the FS where I want it.



This is what I was trying to get at in the UA Revised Classes thread. I said this:



I also tend to find the sorcerer underwhelming. I have enough trouble trying to build one even in theory and be happy with the spells known. If I add cleric spells to the mix and try to make what I want from a spells known point of view I can't even get close, and that's if I only add 3 or so cleric spells. I think domains are a great way to do that. I realize that it probably does unbalance the FS in regards to other sorcerer subclasses, but I think that goes back to them being underwhelming as a class. Compared to other 5E classes I think the sorcerer lags behind and this would not overbalance it compared to them.

Sadly the spells known problem is not solvable within this edition. There is the unwritten rule that "nothing on any supplement should overshadow similar stuff in core", and Mearls and co are sticking to their guns on this one. It's a lost battle, last year's printing of the storm sorcerer without the bonus spells confirmed it, the early polls -based on pre-nerf dragon sorcerer- showed dragon sorcerer was perfect and thus nothing that clearly overshadows it can ever be considered balanced. Trying to push for the favored soul to have more spells known -on any shape or form, not limited but also including domains- would make it unprintable. Perhaps we could get away with a few extra proficiencies, but I don't want to risk it, I do need this subclass for thematic and combat role reasons and any show of discontent would mean even less flexibility that it already has.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Sadly the spells known problem is not solvable within this edition. There is the unwritten rule that "nothing on any supplement should overshadow similar stuff in core", and Mearls and co are sticking to their guns on this one. It's a lost battle, last year's printing of the storm sorcerer without the bonus spells confirmed it, the early polls -based on pre-nerf dragon sorcerer- showed dragon sorcerer was perfect and thus nothing that clearly overshadows it can ever be considered balanced.

They could, however, print a Revised Sorcerer, similar to the Revised Ranger. They wouldn't even have to redo the whole class or touch subclasses. All they'd need would be a sidebar making a few tweaks (more known spells, maybe more metamagic points/options, etc). Then it would be an option for groups to use if they felt the PHB one was a bit underwhelming, without invalidating it, just like the Revised Ranger.

 

[flametitan]

I could see a metamagic initiate feat, while it could be considered to be a feat tax to some, being another possible option. It could add two-three points and one metamagic for any spellcasting character, but more points for classes that already have access to metamagic (like 1/4 sorcerer level, to a minimum of +2?)

 

[gyor]

I could see a metamagic initiate feat, while it could be considered to be a feat tax to some, being another possible option. It could add two-three points and one metamagic for any spellcasting character, but more points for classes that already have access to metamagic (like 1/4 sorcerer level, to a minimum of +2?)

An interesting idea, although I'd go with 1 metamagic feat and instesd of sorcery points one free use of it per short rest.

 

[flametitan]

An interesting idea, although I'd go with 1 metamagic feat and instesd of sorcery points one free use of it per short rest.

The reason why I'm suggesting Sorcery points is to line it up with Martial Adept, which gives a battlemaster another die to be used for any of their manoeuvres, not just the ones granted by the feat. Sorcerers, then, would get more sorcery points that can be used for spell slots, metamagic, subclass features, etc.

 

[MoonSong]

The reason why I'm suggesting Sorcery points is to line it up with Martial Adept, which gives a battlemaster another die to be used for any of their manoeuvres, not just the ones granted by the feat. Sorcerers, then, would get more sorcery points that can be used for spell slots, metamagic, subclass features, etc.

Why not split the difference? You gain one metamagic option, and you can use it once per long rest or increase your sorcery point pool by 2/3?

 

[gyor]

I meant one free use per short rest of any Metamagic the character has which would keep keep it's usage as often as the die from Martial Adept which is once per short rest as well.

Anyways I see the gap between original domain based Favoured Soul and Cleric Spells with Spectral Wings FS , with FS CSSW (Favoured Soul Spectral Wings) ahead by 7 votes now.