D&D 5E Which version of the Favoured Soul do you like best?

[Yunru]

Because Sorcerers would make the best Gishes simply by having Extra Attack thanks to the Quicken Metamagic.

 

[gyor]

They have a Gish subclass, the stone sorceror. The original FS was an aweful Gish, only simple weapon, yuck.

 

[tuxgeo]

One way to go back to having Favored Soul Sorcerers with domain magic (now that I have thought about it a little bit longer):

Do it this way:
(1) Favored Souls may choose their known Cantrips from any cantrip on the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list, but no more than half of any Favored Soul's known cantrips may be ones that are not on the Sorcerer spell list. (Want to take "Light?" That counts as either a Cleric cantrip or a Sorcerer cantrip, so go for it -- even if you already know a couple of other Cleric cantrips!)
(2) DOMAIN CASTING: At 1st level, select a Domain from the list of Domains available to Clerics. Each Domain lists two spells of each of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th spell level. At 1st level, you learn one of the 1st-level spells listed for your selected Domain, and you also learn one other 1st-level spell from the Cleric spell list. This feature also gives you two more known spells at each of 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th sorcerer levels; and each time you gain these two more known spells at those levels, you learn one of the two listed spells for the domain (your choice) plus one other spell of the same level from the Cleric spell list. All of these spells count as sorcerer spells for you, and do not count against the number of sorcerer spells you can know.
Also, the spells you learn with Domain Casting are subject to the usual rules for retraining as you gain new sorcerer levels, subject to the following two restrictions:
+ (a) if you retrain one of your spells known from your Domain Casting feature, the new spell must be selected from the Cleric spell list; and
+ (b) you can never have more than half of the spells you know from your Domain Casting feature be spells that are not among the listed spells for your selected Domain.

Yeah, I agree that this is a bit fiddly and complicated. However, it does offer a couple of benefits:
(1) Make the Favored Soul be more similar to the existing Dragon Blood, Wild Mage, and Tempest sorcerer sub-classes in the sense of knowing at least some spells from the sorcerer spell list; and
(2) Allowing individual Favored Souls to customize their access to Cleric spells to a slight degree, while still being faithful to their choice of Domain -- again, to a slight degree.

Any Favored Soul would thereby be able to learn both of the listed spells for their domain when they learn new domain spells; but they wouldn't have to; and they would have the flexibility to retrain out the domain spell at any spell level provided they knew enough other domain spells to keep the ratio to no more than half non-domain.

Example: Kiltrak the Cholic takes the Life Domain, and chooses to learn Bless from that domain list, but also to learn Healing Word, which is not on that domain list. At 3rd level, Kiltrak the Cholic learns two 2nd-level cleric spells; the ones available to him from the Life Domain are Lesser Restoration and Spiritual Weapon, so if he takes both of those, that gives him three spells from his Domain Casting feature that are from the listed spells for his domain. At the same time, he can retrain Bless to learn Bane instead (or any other 1st-level Cleric spell), because his two 2nd-spell-level domain spells count as half of his known spells from his Domain Casting feature, so he doesn't need either of his 1st-level spells from that feature to be from his domain list.

The purpose is a smidgen of flexibility; the cost is greater complexity. Is it too much complexity for not enough flexibility?

 

[MoonSong]

Well, I personally feel that the designers should perhaps step out of their comfort zone and mix things up a bit. Not everything needs to be additive, this is playtest material, they should have changed things around and swapped spell lists and got some feedback on what people think.

I'd rather they experiment with some other class. Personally I need a good uncontroversial sorcerer subclass on print with concept versatility and not a lot of premade flavor cooked in. This one is not perfect, but does the job. Excessive experimentation during the open playtest severely crippled the sorcerer class, and will make things worse. What is the point of restricting the favored soul to just the cleric list, when not even clerics themselves are restricted to it?

I see the ability to pick from both lists as good, as that helps reduce the comparisons between the sorcerer and other classes. Right now sorcerer is a poor wizard, swapping the lists would only make the favored soul a poor cleric. Having the chance of mix and match helps them do something unique and doesn't take away from the cleric that can always have way more spells prepared than a favored soul can know.

I actually don't get why a lot of people are wanting the favored soul to have melee focus. Because of the 3.5 class? Maybe then the issue is in decision of reusing the name, but then the 3.5 was an attempt to create a "divine sorcerer" and was melee focused only because being kept too close to cleric. But the game really doesn't need another fully armored, melee combat based divine character, we have enough of them already In this the 5e version is considerably better, because it allows to make a divine-themed character that can just stay in robes and casting from range. (And yeah the cure wounds spell maybe isn't the best in such build).

Basically because it shares the same name. If it has the same name, players expect it to be similar enough.

 

[gyor]

One way to go back to having Favored Soul Sorcerers with domain magic (now that I have thought about it a little bit longer):

Do it this way:
(1) Favored Souls may choose their known Cantrips from any cantrip on the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list, but no more than half of any Favored Soul's known cantrips may be ones that are not on the Sorcerer spell list. (Want to take "Light?" That counts as either a Cleric cantrip or a Sorcerer cantrip, so go for it -- even if you already know a couple of other Cleric cantrips!)
(2) DOMAIN CASTING: At 1st level, select a Domain from the list of Domains available to Clerics. Each Domain lists two spells of each of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th spell level. At 1st level, you learn one of the 1st-level spells listed for your selected Domain, and you also learn one other 1st-level spell from the Cleric spell list. This feature also gives you two more known spells at each of 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th sorcerer levels; and each time you gain these two more known spells at those levels, you learn one of the two listed spells for the domain (your choice) plus one other spell of the same level from the Cleric spell list. All of these spells count as sorcerer spells for you, and do not count against the number of sorcerer spells you can know.
Also, the spells you learn with Domain Casting are subject to the usual rules for retraining as you gain new sorcerer levels, subject to the following two restrictions:
+ (a) if you retrain one of your spells known from your Domain Casting feature, the new spell must be selected from the Cleric spell list; and
+ (b) you can never have more than half of the spells you know from your Domain Casting feature be spells that are not among the listed spells for your selected Domain.

Yeah, I agree that this is a bit fiddly and complicated. However, it does offer a couple of benefits:
(1) Make the Favored Soul be more similar to the existing Dragon Blood, Wild Mage, and Tempest sorcerer sub-classes in the sense of knowing at least some spells from the sorcerer spell list; and
(2) Allowing individual Favored Souls to customize their access to Cleric spells to a slight degree, while still being faithful to their choice of Domain -- again, to a slight degree.

Any Favored Soul would thereby be able to learn both of the listed spells for their domain when they learn new domain spells; but they wouldn't have to; and they would have the flexibility to retrain out the domain spell at any spell level provided they knew enough other domain spells to keep the ratio to no more than half non-domain.

Example: Kiltrak the Cholic takes the Life Domain, and chooses to learn Bless from that domain list, but also to learn Healing Word, which is not on that domain list. At 3rd level, Kiltrak the Cholic learns two 2nd-level cleric spells; the ones available to him from the Life Domain are Lesser Restoration and Spiritual Weapon, so if he takes both of those, that gives him three spells from his Domain Casting feature that are from the listed spells for his domain. At the same time, he can retrain Bless to learn Bane instead (or any other 1st-level Cleric spell), because his two 2nd-spell-level domain spells count as half of his known spells from his Domain Casting feature, so he doesn't need either of his 1st-level spells from that feature to be from his domain list.

The purpose is a smidgen of flexibility; the cost is greater complexity. Is it too much complexity for not enough flexibility?

An interesting idea, but I still prefer the current version of the FS.

 

[MoonSong]

One way to go back to having Favored Soul Sorcerers with domain magic (now that I have thought about it a little bit longer):

Do it this way:
(1) Favored Souls may choose their known Cantrips from any cantrip on the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list, but no more than half of any Favored Soul's known cantrips may be ones that are not on the Sorcerer spell list. (Want to take "Light?" That counts as either a Cleric cantrip or a Sorcerer cantrip, so go for it -- even if you already know a couple of other Cleric cantrips!)
(2) DOMAIN CASTING: At 1st level, select a Domain from the list of Domains available to Clerics. Each Domain lists two spells of each of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th spell level. At 1st level, you learn one of the 1st-level spells listed for your selected Domain, and you also learn one other 1st-level spell from the Cleric spell list. This feature also gives you two more known spells at each of 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th sorcerer levels; and each time you gain these two more known spells at those levels, you learn one of the two listed spells for the domain (your choice) plus one other spell of the same level from the Cleric spell list. All of these spells count as sorcerer spells for you, and do not count against the number of sorcerer spells you can know.
Also, the spells you learn with Domain Casting are subject to the usual rules for retraining as you gain new sorcerer levels, subject to the following two restrictions:
+ (a) if you retrain one of your spells known from your Domain Casting feature, the new spell must be selected from the Cleric spell list; and
+ (b) you can never have more than half of the spells you know from your Domain Casting feature be spells that are not among the listed spells for your selected Domain.

Yeah, I agree that this is a bit fiddly and complicated. However, it does offer a couple of benefits:
(1) Make the Favored Soul be more similar to the existing Dragon Blood, Wild Mage, and Tempest sorcerer sub-classes in the sense of knowing at least some spells from the sorcerer spell list; and
(2) Allowing individual Favored Souls to customize their access to Cleric spells to a slight degree, while still being faithful to their choice of Domain -- again, to a slight degree.

Any Favored Soul would thereby be able to learn both of the listed spells for their domain when they learn new domain spells; but they wouldn't have to; and they would have the flexibility to retrain out the domain spell at any spell level provided they knew enough other domain spells to keep the ratio to no more than half non-domain.

Example: Kiltrak the Cholic takes the Life Domain, and chooses to learn Bless from that domain list, but also to learn Healing Word, which is not on that domain list. At 3rd level, Kiltrak the Cholic learns two 2nd-level cleric spells; the ones available to him from the Life Domain are Lesser Restoration and Spiritual Weapon, so if he takes both of those, that gives him three spells from his Domain Casting feature that are from the listed spells for his domain. At the same time, he can retrain Bless to learn Bane instead (or any other 1st-level Cleric spell), because his two 2nd-spell-level domain spells count as half of his known spells from his Domain Casting feature, so he doesn't need either of his 1st-level spells from that feature to be from his domain list.

The purpose is a smidgen of flexibility; the cost is greater complexity. Is it too much complexity for not enough flexibility?

It is a straightjacket compared to just choose the ones you want from both lists. It complicates a lot what should be one of the simplest casters and invites excessive DM intervention.

• To begin with, that many extra spells are not going to happen. Not after Storm sorcerer was published without them.
• Safe for life domain, domain lists contain mostly wizard and druid spells. So they don't really contribute to the divine flavor, and odds are they are on the sorcerer list anyway. (Moreover the flavor isn't straight servant of a god, that is the cleric, the flavor is someone with a divine spark that might be a messenger of a god, but might as well be the child of a god or another divine being)
• Sorcerer and cleric share 20 spells in core. How should we treat those? How are they counted?
• It is still possible to have a sorcerer with all spells that are on the cleric list, they just have to get creative. But If I want to learn cure wounds, feign death, bless and gentle repose I won't be able to, just because.
• It puts a burden on what future domains might show up.
• Also another 23 spells overlap between the cleric and wizard, so they don't have a lot of cleric flavor built-in. (They include some stuff like contagion, geas, and planar binding)
• I still don't see what the point of forcing the favored soul to pick at least some sorcerer spells is. What does it add to the game? how is it more fun?
• And Light, Mending, Enhance ability, dispel magic, all of them are shared spells between cleric and sorcerer lists, and they are quite useful, odds are a favored soul will pick at least light, detect magic, enhance ability and dispel magic anyway, that's a fifth of all the spells a sorcerer can know over their career.

 

[tuxgeo]

OK, that does answer my closing question, above: It's too much complexity for too little flexibility. I think I finally got it this time. . . .

 

[MoonSong]

OK, that does answer my closing question, above: It's too much complexity for too little flexibility. I think I finally got it this time. . . .

Sorry for not being direct. Though I'm really intrigued by your reasons. Why do you want domains so much? (Honest question, I really want to try to see things from your point of view. I'm more biased than normal in this discussion. I have quite a selfish stake on this, namely I want as much open space for individuality within an official/printed subclass. So I really want to try to see where you are coming from. You may not convert me, but I often play devil's advocate and maybe could even help you get an idea of what you want, I just need to understand why do you want what you wan and exactly what do you want)

 

[tuxgeo]

I was trying to find a way for the Favored Soul to be similar to the other sorcerer subclasses with regard to the extent to which each subclass gained major or minor features. I feel I'm not being clear about this; and I'm guessing it's due to the late hour here. (At my age, my mind is clearer in the mornings than it is at this hour of the evening.)

I'll try again, though:
First, if all Favored Souls have equal access to all of the same Cleric spells, then it's only their consistency of choice that differentiates the spells-known list of one from another. That would indicate to me that "it doesn't matter what they believe -- their spells-known only reflect their personal preferences, not their deities' preferences or spheres of influence."
Second, IIRC the Dragon Blood and Wild Mage and Storm Sorcerer mostly take spells from the sorcerer spell list. They have that in common. With full access to all of the cleric spells, the Favored Soul would no longer have that in common with other types of sorcerers, and would thus be an exception or an outlier in that regard.

 

[gyor]

I was trying to find a way for the Favored Soul to be similar to the other sorcerer subclasses with regard to the extent to which each subclass gained major or minor features. I feel I'm not being clear about this; and I'm guessing it's due to the late hour here. (At my age, my mind is clearer in the mornings than it is at this hour of the evening.)

I'll try again, though:
First, if all Favored Souls have equal access to all of the same Cleric spells, then it's only their consistency of choice that differentiates the spells-known list of one from another. That would indicate to me that "it doesn't matter what they believe -- their spells-known only reflect their personal preferences, not their deities' preferences or spheres of influence."
Second, IIRC the Dragon Blood and Wild Mage and Storm Sorcerer mostly take spells from the sorcerer spell list. They have that in common. With full access to all of the cleric spells, the Favored Soul would no longer have that in common with other types of sorcerers, and would thus be an exception or an outlier in that regard.

That is a feature, not a bug, Wild Sorceror, Dragon Sorceror, Storm Sorceror, Phoenix Sorceror, Sea Sorceror, Stone Sorceror are all Arcane Spellcasters.

Favoured Soul and Shadow Sorceror aren't, Favoured Soul uses divine magic and Shadow Sorceror uses Shadow Magic.

Favoured Soul don't even use the same naming conventions as other Sorcerors, and many common folk wouldn't realize that the Favoured Soul is a sorceror, they would be more likely to see them as a cleric or other spiritually revered figure. Favoured Soul's don't even view themselves as Sorcerors. ,,,,

Seriously only some one well versed in Arcana or Religion maybe, would know a Favoured Soul is a sorceror (or that sorcerors aren't simply interchangeable with wizards).