. . . while you're at it. . . Fix heavy armor!

[Andor]

Good discussion, and thants to Armored Saint for some fabulous input.

For my part, I've done armor as AC, DR, combinations.. loved the old 1e adjustments... and have finally settled in on the idea that armor should add hit points...once these are used the armor must be repaired (as noted by Armored Saint's comments on maintenance). The armor still provides AC/DR but not hit point buffer..

So say half plate (AC+4,DR4,20hps)... Fighter in combat is hit by a dragon claw for 21 points of damage... DR reduces this to 17, reducing amor to 3. The fighter hasn't taken any damage, but his breastplate now has a puncture hole!

Criticals ignore armour hip points..

For things like Dragonlords (Elric with things like demon armor), magic armor may have more hit points, or healing abilities for the armor only...

Oddly enough you just described the Armour system from the original Palladium Fantasy RPG.

 

[DM_Blake]

Here's my fix to 3.5e (house rules):
All light and hvy armor adjusted so the AC and Max Dex total 9. Med armor totals 10.

Armor check penalty is simplified to -1 for all light armor except padded (-0), -2 for all medium armor, and -4 for all hvy armor except full plate (-3 because it's so well made and expensive).

Armor doesn't affect movement rate (but its weight can affect encumberance which does affect movement rate, and I increased the weights of medium and hvy armor to more appropriate levels).

I also reduced sprint to x3 for medium and to x2 (meaning there is no sprint) for heavy armor.

I moved Hide Armor to the light list.

So it looks like:
Padded: AB 1, MD 8, ACP 0
Leather: AB 2, MD 7, ACP -1
St. Leather: AB 3, MD 6, ACP -1
Hide: AC 3, MD 6, ACP -1
Chain Shirt: AB 4, MD 5, ACP -1

Scale: AB 5, MD 5, ACP -2, Wt 40
Chainmail: AB 6, MD 4, ACP -2, Wt 50
Breastplate: AB 6, MD 4, ACP -2, Wt 35

Splint: AB 7, MD 2, ACP -4, Wt 60
Banded: AB 8, MD 1, ACP -4, Wt 70
Half-Plate: AB 8, MD 1, ACP -4, Wt 60
Full Plate: AB 9, MD 0, ACP -3, Wt 70

Given these changes, nobody ever chooses armor based on mobility, though they might consider encumberance and long-term movement (running all night long from a horde of orcs is fatal to heavy armor wearers).

Light armor favors people who magically enhance their DEX. Heavy armor favors people who have little or no DEX modifiers. Medium armor is for the people in between who have some good DEX modifier but not magical enhancement, and maybe don't have super high STR so the lower encumberance helps them too, and they can conceivably be a point of AC higher than they would be in light or heavy armor.

This has balance the playing field and I see all types of armor used in game.

And when the monster horde includes a suit of +3 Banded Mail, the "lets sell it" option is not always the first thing out of everyone's mouth.

True, our acrobatic armoredsaint has shown that maybe heavy armor wearers should get reasonable DEX modifiers, but that would make heavy armor somewhat game-breaking, so I'm willing to sacrifice some reality for game balance.

This kind of balancing would make 4e armors much more palatable, methinks.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

The thing that intrigues me most about armour in 4th edition is the possibility that some types of armour might add to your Fortitude defense, as in Star Wars Saga Edition.

 

[Gort]

The thing that intrigues me most about armour in 4th edition is the possibility that some types of armour might add to your Fortitude defense, as in Star Wars Saga Edition.

Keep in mind though, that Star Wars D20 armour rules have always discouraged the use of armour, except at low levels, or for "mooks". The armour bonus doesn't stack with your own class bonus, so some armour has no effect on some characters. (Han Solo, for instance, doesn't get a higher AC when he puts on a stormtrooper suit)

D&D on the other hand, is designed to encourage pretty much all characters wearing armour of some kind or another, so the rules may well be different.

True, our acrobatic armoredsaint has shown that maybe heavy armor wearers should get reasonable DEX modifiers, but that would make heavy armor somewhat game-breaking, so I'm willing to sacrifice some reality for game balance.

To be honest, against normal weapons I'd like to see heavy armour be the absolute king of defense - there was a reason why everyone who could afford it was wearing it, after all. However, considering the threats D&D adventurers face, many of them aren't really defeated by armour. The club of a giant should absolutely pulverise anyone it actually hits, plate mail or not. In that situation, dodging out of the way should be the key, and lighter armour would make that easier.

If there were some rules whereby your average swordsman who hits your AC gets to roll against your fortitude defense (aided by your plate mail) but the giant gets to roll against your reflex defense (aided by your DEX score) that'd be pretty cool.

 

[Ahglock]

The "fix" you recommend isn't really helping heavy-armor wearers as much as it is nerfing Dex-oriented characters.

I'll never understand how folks can begrudge a character that makes a major investment in maxing out Dexterity winding up with an AC in the same league as another guy who just went out and spent 1500 gp on some armor.

Heavy armor's a patch for having a mediocre Dex. That seems about right.

Probably because its not really a major investment to most high dex characters, its a basic investment they would be making anyways no matter what benefit they got from armor. If you are building a archer or a rogue or any other Dex based character you are putting those points there. At the end of the day you get the same AC as the heavy armor guy but don't have reduced mobility and skill use.

Sure the two handed sword fighter who "invests" in a 18 dex gets hosed, but big deal you built a sub-optimal character. But the options should be balanced for normal use which they aren't. Right now you have a piece of specific armor to wear for each dex you start with, and you basically end up with the same AC. If you happen to be building a Dex based character you also get mobility and skill use for free in the package deal. If you happen to not be building a dex based character you lose out on those options but get stuck with the same AC.

If Dex was some kind of nonfunctional stat that it was a chore to invest points in you'd have a point, but its a great stat that lots of builds(while ignoring the armor issue) have a great benefit for putting points into.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Here's my fix to 3.5e (house rules):

Most of this looks real good, Blake.

All light and hvy armor adjusted so the AC and Max Dex total 9. Med armor totals 10.

Not sure how I feel about arbitrarily making medium armor a 10. It seems done just to make it more attractive. Now, personally, I like round numbers. I think all armors should come out to either +9 or +10 total, from lightest to heaviest. But that's an arbitrary decision, too.

Armor check penalty is simplified to -1 for all light armor except padded (-0), -2 for all medium armor, and -4 for all hvy armor except full plate (-3 because it's so well made and expensive).

"Well made and expensive" seems the purview of masterwork armor, IMO.

Armor doesn't affect movement rate (but its weight can affect encumberance which does affect movement rate, and I increased the weights of medium and hvy armor to more appropriate levels).

This does seem the right way to go, generally speaking, and I'm willing to let ArmoredSaint's "Very dangerous over short distances!" example speak for itself. But mostly, I don't like having characters with different combat move speeds in the same party. It's horrible for play. We have a group of 7 players in our current campaign, and ONE character, dwarven fighter in full plate, who moves at 20. He's meant to be our frontline fighter, but he is always last into every battle, and it is proving very frustrating for the player. (And for the rest of us, though it has become a "running" joke.)

I also reduced sprint to x3 for medium and to x2 (meaning there is no sprint) for heavy armor. Given these changes, nobody ever chooses armor based on mobility, though they might consider encumberance and long-term movement (running all night long from a horde of orcs is fatal to heavy armor wearers).

I like this a lot. I don't want heavy armor to be a huge hindrance when the miniatures come out, but there should be some penalty felt for overland/long distance movement. It should be hindering/exhausting over the long term.

(Incidentally, I just read an anecdote that in 1066 Harold marched his army 200 miles in 5 days. Even unarmored, I found that impressive.)

 

[Odysseus]

My concern with armour , if they don't change it to DR, is the relationship between BAB and armour bonus.
I believe armour should provide a bonus at all levels. So what ever a 30th level character gets as BAB, should be related to the armour bonus. But at the same time the armour bonus shouldn't be so high that 1st level character can't hit it.
So the only solutions it seems to me, is that armour should be more effective with increased levels.Or the BAB increase with level is alot less. Although I'd prefer DR.

 

[Stalker0]

As I see it, there's a few ways to balance out armor.

1) Give heavier armors some form of DR. However, the problem with DR is it effects weapons differently. A dagger is far more hindered than a greatsword. This works fine for reality, but dnd is not about reality, dnd tries to encourage as many different archetypes as possible. You have the greatsword wielding barbarian and the knife throwing rogue. Both should be viable, and more DR hinders one over the other.

2) Give heavier armors some special manuevers. 4e has already mentioned that weapons gain certain abilities, why not armors? Perhaps heavy armor gains solid stance where you gain +1 AC if you don't move. Perhaps there's a sprint mechanic that light armor people can use but not heavy armor, etc.

3) Readjust the armor numbers. Now people have already made the excellent point that if someone wants mobility, they will go all out. If they want protection, they will go all out. There are plenty of incentives in dnd to specialize. This is why medium armor is the redheaded stepchild in dnd.

To fix this, you can't make the armors equal, you have to make medium armor BETTER. Medium armor should give almost as much protection as heavy, but suffer far fewer penalties to ACP and speed. Going heavy should be the option for those who want true AC mastery, but medium should be a common choice for many who want a balanced look.

 

[neceros]

Looking at how damage potential scales in comparison to attack bonuses with monsters and NPCs in 3E, it definitely would make armor even less valuable than it is already. Taking off 8 points of a +18 attack bonus is a lot better than taking 8 points off 21 points of average damage, especially when you figure in Power Attack and crits. Hit points are what keep escalating damage at bay, AC bonuses keep damage from actually getting through. If I have 100 hit points, and something dishes out 20 points of damage on average per hit, I'd rather it not HIT that often than it hitting me more often but then making only 12 points of damage.

If you add some kind of level-based Defense bonus into the mix, it might work better, but then you end up with too many hit points on higher levels to keep battles quick. Personally I'd prefer armor convert part of the damage to subdual damage, while classes gain some level-based Defense bonus. I liked the Defense bonus concept in Wheel of Time D20, for example, especially with the Armor Compatibility feats alongside.

I agree under 3e rules. However, we're hoping that if this route is taken they would adjust the rate of armor accordingly. Heavy armor, as +8AC would be nice, sure, but like yous aid it wouldn't really do much when you're getting hit almost all of the time. This is why they'd have to increase the DR value.

When I think of heavy armor I think of people going rather slow and getting hit, but not really caring because the damage isn't going through (Or is being converted into subdual?)

AS it stands I'm not the one to balance the issue, but is still seems better if it were DR.

--------------

Something else I just thought of after reading a couple more posts.

Giving a Defense bonus to AC according to level and class would be a good route, as well. My group is trying out the Unearthed Arcana variants of Class level Defense bonus + Armor as DR optional rules. It's working alright so far, but we're only level 4.

If we were to say, "From now on your BAB goes towards AC and BAB per normal." How would that affect gameplay, in your minds?

 

[Warbringer]

As I see it, there's a few ways to balance out armor.

1) Give heavier armors some form of DR. ...
2) Give heavier armors some special manuevers. ....

In Iron Heroes, Mike Mearls initial opus in d20 (from what I can tall)

1) All armor has DR...leather 1d2, chain 1d4, fullplate 1d8
2) Maneuvers are available that allow you to increase the DR by +1, increase your ability to ignore crits (basically fortfication)...

So, given that IH also was the first to present manuevers for weapons (via Feat Mastery) we could be something similar for 4e