. . . while you're at it. . . Fix heavy armor!

[DarkKestral]

Is the research still showing that the average modern infantryman carries more weight on gear into combat than the average medieval knight? I know the average full-plate rig weighs 70 lbs for the average human male (I don't know how the weights compare for women, though I assume they're similar to within 5 lbs) and I've heard that the average US infantryman carries upwards of 100 lbs of gear into combat, so I can't imagine the knights would be terribly more encumbered, especially when you take into account the overall more even weight distribution. If there's a mobility loss at the legs, that might account for some of it, but even that feels like a bit of a cop out.

Likewise, I've done 10-15 mile hikes up 3k feet in a day with a 50-60 lbs pack on my back, and it's easily doable with sufficient training. (How much depends on your time of life, current overall fitness, steepness of grade, and overall difficulty of terrain) While I'm young, I did this without incredible levels of training, plus I'm a lowlander and this was already starting at 9 thousand feet, so i was doubly punished by the thinner air and the lack of training, and I completed it without major incident, though I certainly had to rest a few times along the way, just because my pack couldn't hold the weight in a proper distribution well, and a few times because we were in a pocket canyon with ~100% humidity on a day when it was over 100 degrees. If I could do it in those conditions, a knight who had spent much of their life in armor since their early teens or late pre-adolescent years should certainly be able to do so, in far more forgiving conditions, excepting heat issues (which are obviously still a factor) that crop of from lack of heat venting. A forced march of this style would certainly prevent combat readiness for a few days, but after a day or so, the troops would be ready.

All in all, I don't really see why heavy armor should be so penalizing for such heavy benefit. I could understand special bonuses could be given to the classes most likely to use it for wearing it, but the penalties should not, on average, be so harsh, in my opinion.

Kahuna: I certainly notice a hike when I have an extra 25 lbs on my back, but past the first 20 or so, it's always stopped being very noticeable once it is properly distributed up to about 80 or so...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Kahuna: I certainly notice a hike when I have an extra 25 lbs on my back, but past the first 20 or so, it's always stopped being very noticeable once it is properly distributed up to about 80 or so...

You and Kahuna both got me thinking, a solution to satisfy the realists on all sides might be just to have movement penalties for encumbrance. As it is now, it's a double penalty, and it sounds like maybe it shouldn't be.

If you can carry the weight of the armor without being encumbered, no movement penalty.

At the same time, perhaps the penalties for encumbrance, and the STR chart itself, need to be a little more realistic.

 

[Cadfan]

I can backpack 20 to 30 miles per day for several weeks, with a 50 to 60 lb pack. Not tough.

I can't fight full strength for more than a minute or two without getting winded.

Entirely different types of endurance. The second is especially tough to get used to, because of adrenaline issues. Leaves you drained.

 

[Aage]

Damned imperial/american units ^^ I have to stop reading and make calculations all the time

Anyway, if you're gaining penalties from encumbrance anyway, why have a special penalty from armours? Why not use the same penalties?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The "fatigue" issue goes further than armor. Few people can fight for their life for more than a handful of minutes before they're exhausted.

Good thing the fight's over in 30 seconds at most, then.

Brad

 

[Lord Zardoz]

The only place at which heavy armour tends to fall behind Dex / Dodge bonuses are Touch attacks and the movement penalty.

While I do not think the movement penalty is a big deal, I do think it would be a great idea to find a way to reduce the movement penalty. Since the game is moving towards having a great deal more movement this should be addressed.

I think an ideal fix would be to tie the movement penalty to the wearers strength score. If you have a Str less than X, full movement penalty will apply. If your strength is at a certain minimum, than you take no movement penalty at all.

This will let fighters concentrate on pumping up their Str score without wanting to try for a high dex to offset the movement penalty from armour. The strongest characters will wear plate and have full movement. Moderately strong characters can do teh same in medium armour.

As for touch AC, I suggest letting people add their shield bonus to their touch AC. This gives a reason to use shields instead of a 2 handed weapon.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Good thing the fight's over in 30 seconds at most, then.

Brad

But spread over a few encounters a day? Especially in an encounter-rich environment like a dungeon. I'd worry.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

I don't know how much this actually adds to the discussion, but regarding my own endurance in my full plate....

The longest stretch I've ever worn it was eight hours, which time included four combat demos at a Renaissance festival. It's not uncomfortable unless the day is particularly hot. I can wear it all day long. As others have said, the weight is well-distributed, and to a certain degree some of it is almost self-supporting (the sabatons contact the ground, the greaves rest on top of the sabatons, and the cuisses are mounted on a pin at the top of the greaves...).

As far as how long a period of time I can keep up strenuous physical activity in it...I don't really know. I've never timed myself or anything. I am in pretty good shape, and have owned, worn, and fought in full plate armour for twelve years--I'm probably one of the very few people in the modern world who actually has the Heavy Armour Proficiency feat. That said, I'd guess that the very longest I've ever been obliged to engage in anything resembling fighting for my life at a stretch would be about ten minutes, in a large SCA war.

There isn't much that a D&D adventurer might be called on to do that I think full plate armour would prevent outright--except maybe swimming. That said, I'm not sure that this would be my first choice for the traditional dungeon-crawl. But my position has nothing to do with encumberance or "armour check penalty," and everything to do with maintenance. Armour like this requires maintenance. I don't just mean polishing to keep the rust away, either. I'm talking about bursting straps and rivets, and breaking arming points, and needing to pound out the occasional dent (which are, admittedly, really only troublesome if they interfere with the joint articulation), etc. If I were a D&D character about to embark on a dungeon-crawl in full plate, I'd want a small armour maintenance kit with me--say, a small portable anvil (5lbs) and hammer for setting rivets, a pair of tongs/nippers for removing damaged rivets, a couple of home-punches, a supply of spare straps and arming points, and that sort of thing.

So yeah, I agree that full plate rightfully should be king of the battlefield, but I'd choose a cuirass, helmet, greaves, and maybe some light plate elements on the arms--essentially what D&D terms "Breastplate" armour for something like crawling around a tomb...

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Regarding armour as Damage Reduction

I do not think that Armour as Damage reduction is a very good idea. One of the things that caused high level combat in 3.5 to break down was that there were too many variables to consider when making an attack roll.

Adding damage reduction to all armour means adding a new variable to the equation. Even worse, it adds a variable to the damage that will change with each different target you try to hit[/].

Here is damage as it is in 3.5
Dmg = die + Str Bonus + Magic Wpn Bonus + #Feats + Buff Spells + *Situational + Sneak Attack;

# Weapon specialization, weapon mastery, and other fixed modifiers
* Situational refers to Power attack and a x2 charge / set to receive charge modifier, and a Rangers favoured enemy bonus

The first 3 variables are reasonably well fixed. Buff spells complicate it a bit but are usually not too bad. Situational modifiers are also a bit of a pain, but are also easy to determine, and they do not come up that often. Sneak Attack is situational, but it comes up often and it stays fixed per level, and so is not difficult to keep track of. The one thing these all have in common though, is that once you know the modifiers that apply, you can calculate them out, write down something like 1d8+13, and your good for probably the rest of the fight.

If your players are fighting a bunch of Orcs, no big deal. They will all be wearing the same armour, and will all have the same DR. Well, not a big deal for you players. For you, you have to keep track of the DR for your players so you know how much damage your orc did on a hit.

If you have your players fighting a BBEG, the BBEG's bodyguard, and the BBEG's cleric, chances are good that none of those 3 characters is wearing identical armour. Chances are also good that none of your PC's is wearing armour identical to one another. This means every time your player scores a hit, you have to look up that particular opponents damage reduction. Every time you hit, you have to get the same info for the player you just damaged.

Also keep in mind that the suggestion of armour as DR does not replace AC. It is suggested as being in addition to it. And lastly, adding DR as a common thing to every heavily armoured combatant opens up the addition of buff spells that modify it.

DR is a good mechanic, but I prefer it to be something that does not come up every time I roll damage.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I've considered granting characters who wear heavy armor a scaling AC boost. For example, at +1 BAB and each 5 points thereafter you add +1 to your heavy armor's AC bonus.

As far as I'm concerned, 'medium armor' is a vestigal term. The only armor that anyone will ever wear with regularity is light and heavy armor, no matter how the system is tweaked. If you want mobility, you want the best you can get. If you want protection, you want the best you can get. If the 4e designers are smart, there won't be medium armor in 4e.