Whirlwind, Improved Trip and Knockdown

[twjensen]

Pottery?

Ahh yes! The ubiquitious whirlwind defense, used to justify all manner of abuses. Well every single one of those feats is a nice feat in and of itself. If four of the six feats were run, endurance, and skill focus: profession (Baker) and skill focus craft (pottery) then I could see that argument.

Not sure how to justify the craft(pottery) one. I mean, bakers have to be pretty nimble and some of them can be nasty with a rolling pin, but I just don't see potters having that kind of edge.

Maybe skill focus craft(mason)? Now masons are pretty buff. Maybe they learn to spin around with large rocks?

 

[Artoomis]

Whirlwind attack says, "instead make one melee attack so it only counts as one attack. Knockdown states (I believe, I don't have my books) that you get a trip as part of an (singular) attack. I could certainly see allowing knockdown to be used once in the course of the whirlwind attack, but on every single person?

Sorry, the six feats argument doesn't cut it on this one.

"Six feat" argument aside, the feat actually says:

...instead make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent within 5 feet.

I really dislike misleading partial quotes. The ENTIRE clause can be read one of two ways:

1. You make a single melee attack that is against each opponent wihtin 5 feet.

2. You make many melee attacks - one against each opponent within 5 feet.

If you assume number one, then you must also be saying you only roll the dice once ("one melee attack"). Surely not.

Whether or not you get to use Knockdown depends on the wording of that feat, and possibly how you view Whirlwind - whether its one attack or many attacks.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

IMO, BS. Dodge sucks, i'd rather have five ranks in Tumble than Mobility, and a Spring Attack focused fighter doesnt get maximum usage out of Whirlwind, usually one or the other. Improved Trip in our playtests is useless for anyone unless you have the insane Strength needed to pull it off. And then it might work half the time. A smart player can get alot more with six feats, hell i can get an instant one round kill on any Humanoid with just 4.

You seem to have this need to beat down your players and limit just how powerfull a good, smart player can get by making sacrifices. I'm curious if this is just your style or you have PCs so dangerous that allowing them the slightest leeway can break your game. I had a group like that, they been playing together well over 20 years so they worked smooooooth and smart. If its your DM style, hey, its your game but on the other hand I get alot of players with this me-vs-the-DM attititude because of games like that. They end up ruining my game because when i'm trying to have fun RP all they wanna do is 'beat' the game somehow by creating these Mr. Ginsu types, cause thats all that would survive in the games they used to play.

Sorry, the six feats argument doesn't cut it on this one.

 

[hong]

A smart player can get alot more with six feats, hell i can get an instant one round kill on any Humanoid with just 4.

Yes, but _I_ have a huge penis.

IYKWIM, AITYD.

 

[EOL]

You seem to have this need to beat down your players and limit just how powerfull a good, smart player can get by making sacrifices. I'm curious if this is just your style or you have PCs so dangerous that allowing them the slightest leeway can break your game. I had a group like that, they been playing together well over 20 years so they worked smooooooth and smart. If its your DM style, hey, its your game but on the other hand I get alot of players with this me-vs-the-DM attititude because of games like that. They end up ruining my game because when i'm trying to have fun RP all they wanna do is 'beat' the game somehow by creating these Mr. Ginsu types, cause thats all that would survive in the games they used to play.

Partially true the player in question is the single powergamer in the middle of six "character concept" players. I admit if it was another player I'd be inclined to be more lenient. However, that being said much of the "balance" of D&D comes from designing towards the really abusive characters. For example ECL is an Ogre played as a Sorcerer ECL +8 probably not, what about an Ogre Barbarian? Yeah.

And if it were strictly a question of planning a first level character it might be different, but where the character in question already has every feat but knockdown. It feels like I'm giving him two cool abilities for the price of one (knock one person down, knock every person down.)

All this being said if it looks like when all is said and done the rules allow it, then I'll allow it. But I've also learned from hard experience that combos such as this one often need a little exploratory surgery before they can be pronounced healthy.

 

[Crothian]

Well, what is the character in question? What type of damage does he usually do?

To do this combo you still need to have a few enimies all around you and dp 10+ damage. One of those is in control of the PC the otheris in control of the DM. It isn't hard to build a character that has these 6 feats, and possible more, that does 10+ damage on average. But, the DM does not need to constantly surround the PC and make WWA the best option every round.

 

[Artoomis]

Yes, but _I_ have a huge *****.

IYKWIM, AITYD.

Please go back and edit out your innapropriate comment. Thanks.

 

[Artoomis]

EO:

How often is he Whirlwind attacking now? Perhaps you are worrying about something that won't happen often.

 

[EOL]

Well, what is the character in question? What type of damage does he usually do?

To do this combo you still need to have a few enimies all around you and dp 10+ damage. One of those is in control of the PC the otheris in control of the DM. It isn't hard to build a character that has these 6 feats, and possible more, that does 10+ damage on average. But, the DM does not need to constantly surround the PC and make WWA the best option every round.

He's a 14th level Dwarven fighter/barbarian using a Greataxe and 26 str, so doing 10+ damage is automatic. I would like to give him opportunties to use whirlwind, so that he feels like he gets to use his abilties, but I think I would have to think more carefully anytime I did put a potential whirlwind encounter in. For example they are shortly going to be fighting lots of devils, most of home are 5x5 creatures with iterative attacks. This combo could make quite a bit a difference in their overall effectiveness. Assuming they close, which they don't have to with all the spell like abilities, but I'd like that option.

Artoomis: as far as how often he's WW now it's reasonably often it's obviously his favorite attack and he is constantly on the look out for tactical settings where he can use it. He is often hasted and as such he can move 30 ft. to get in optimal position.

 

[kreynolds]

All this being said if it looks like when all is said and done the rules allow it, then I'll allow it. But I've also learned from hard experience that combos such as this one often need a little exploratory surgery before they can be pronounced healthy.

According to the rules, it works. Allow it or ban it. If you ban it, you might as well ban Cleave and Great Cleave while using Whirlwind Attack as well. If you do ban them all, give me a heads up just in case anyone invites me into your game. I wouldn't wanna waste my time joining a game like that. Remember my sig, IMHO.