Whirlwind, Improved Trip and Knockdown

Bucket of snails isn't that effective as most of the snails have full cover. I hate that analogy. Totaly against the spirit of the rules, it just bugs me.

EOL: The Best thing to do is try it out and see what happens. Tell the PC you have reservations about it, but really can't make an accurate ruling without seeing it in practical applications.
 

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kreynolds said:


Cool. But I'm so sick of seeing this "bucket of snails" argument. Solution? Quit sending "snails" up against a player with WA and GC! Geez...lame argument (WA and GC, not yours EOL).
I don't think in the example the DM sends snails up against the players, rather the Players take leadership. Since snails have only 1/512 of a HD that's a whole lot of snails (41,984 at a leadership score of 20) Sure the player ends up killing his followers, but that's how bad power-gaming can get sometimes. :(
 

I don't think in the example the DM sends snails up against the players, rather the Players take leadership. Since snails have only 1/512 of a HD that's a whole lot of snails (41,984 at a leadership score of 20) Sure the player ends up killing his followers, but that's how bad power-gaming can get sometimes.

Errr.. Getting snails? With leadership? Considering that snails aren't sentient, I don't see how it'd be possible...

Honestly, letting a character do that with Leadership is bad DMing, anyways; Leadership is in the DMG for a reason. You ultimately decide what he actually gets with it.

That, and the bucket of snails isn't that legit, anyways; letting someone swing a weapon 300 times in 6 seconds or whatever requires a serious lapse of logic...

Trying it out should work fine, though. If your dwarf can't fly, most devils can just negate him by flying out of his reach (or by having reach, in the case of the bigger ones).
 

First, I dunno if the Improved trip/Knockdown nonsense was settled, but here's my thoughts. Improved Trip and Knockdown are the same thing in reverse order. improved trip says, if you sucessfully trip someone, you get a chance to hit them. Knockdown says, if you hit them (and do enough damage) you can trip them. Since people hit more often than they can sucessfully trip, its the more advanced feat. Its NOT and loop of tripping/attacking. The 10 damage i don't think should be scaled. Tough monsters that don't have damage reduction or other defense, an easy AC and are medium size, a small str should be knockeddown by 10 damage. if you can do 10 damage to the tarrasque, chances are you will lose the trip (Str and Size). I also agree with all the people that say WW/Knockdown should work because with Knockdown the attack comes first (from WW) then the trip.
 

Actually, tripping a monster more than one size larger than the tripper is flat-out impossible. The Tarrasque flat-out can't be tripped unless your character is at least Gargantuan size somehow. With a Ring of Spell-storing (Shapechange) I guess you could attempt it...
 

The main special ability ability of a fighter is that he gets alot of feats. Feats don't really scale, although the addition of newer feats with higher prereqs is changing this scaling problem somewhat. Therefore, in order to be effective in situations in which the abilities of others scale very well, a fighter needs to find ways to combine his feats so that whole is greater than the sum of the parts. In other words, the main point of things like Whirlwind is to combine it other feats because the damage itself isn't as effective.

The whole problem with whirlwind + great cleave and the bucket of snails or the original blind kobolds goes away with a stricter interpretation of the word opponent in whirlwind attack. If they're not opponents, then you don't get the attack. Creatures that you dump out with the intent to kill so taht you get a broken combat bonus aren't really opponents. Problem solved.
 

Victim said:
Creatures that you dump out with the intent to kill so taht you get a broken combat bonus aren't really opponents. Problem solved.

It's people like you who cause all the trouble in the world.
 

I noticed this same combo WAAAAAAAY back when S&F was released. As a primarily DM I had some concerns, but the S&F errata solved the cheesy-loop issue.

Recently I played in a campaign and one of my PCs, a heavily multiclassed 'Brawler of Kord', used this tactic to good advantage. The key thing to keep in mind, as many people have pointed out, is that Tripping is rarely effective vs burly or dextrous opponents regardless of thier level. Its also a resisted roll, so even vs opponents that you have an advantage against you can roll low and biff it.

My character eventually got a Belt of Strength +4 around level 12 and after that he was able to get some use out of the feat. As someone has already pointed out the primary advantage is to deter full attack actions by opponents, but it is primarily a defensive action. Because capability doesnt degrade with injury in d20, it is generally always better to terminate one opponent than wound several opponents.

The DM wasnt happy about the feat because I would put opponents down like bowling pins, but he never seemed to catch on that I ultimately took a lot of damage in the process because I was taking on many opponents simultaneously to get use out of the feat chain.

The most important thing to remember is that WWA is actually a means for the DM to manipulate characters that have it. Unlike almost all other feats, WWA forces the user into a dangerous situation to use it: get surrounded by enemies; the more the better. This is where the feat is counterbalanced moreso than the feat chain necessary to get it. As the risk scales (more opponents) the gain potential does too, but the feat doesnt scale vertically (relative power of opponents) very well. Thus, it is most useful vs opponents that are already not challenging. With a bit of play it becomes obvious that WWA is simply a Chump Drop, just like PA->C->GC and Ice Storm. Ideal for use vs weak opponents that just get in the way, not so great vs tougher opponents. Due to the nature of the CR/EL system such opponents as are most affected by it will yieild the least XP.

As far as your Devil issue is concerned, IIRC, Flying creatures cant be tripped (??Somebody pls Confirm/Deny). If this is true, your Devilish antagonists could fly 1 foot off the ground; fighting for all intents an purposes as if they were standing, but untrippable.

Finally, as a DM and a rules-tweaker, my primary complaint with the Knockdown feat is simply that it takes an oppossed die roll _and_ because it is an oppossed roll the probability matrix on it is extremely spread. Im considering altering Knockdown to either be resisted by a Str/Dex check vs a flat DC = Damage Inflicted. I am still pondering it.
 

THe combo is valid and should be allowed. It works like this...

6 enemies come rushing in and surround said fighter. The fighter whirls and twirls and blows them all down.

They all stand back up and begin tripping him. Six trip attempts... one is going to take him down. Then he has to stand up, thus only gaining a standard action and unable to whirlwind. Plus, if the first one succeeds, the other 6 get +6 to attacks.... +2 for flanking and +4 for prone. Moral of the story... don't get surrounded by 6 people....even WITH whirlwind.

It doesn't have to be the end-all-be-all combo... there ARE ways to defeat it.
 

I'd much rather have disintegrate or harm a couple times a day than this combo, myself.

Let's think about what needs to happen for this combo even to be of use, hmm?

1) Fighter needs to have Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, and WWA, plus Str, Dex, and Int scores of 13+.

2) Fighter needs to be surrounded by two or more opponents.

3) Fighter needs to make successful melee (not touch) attacks vs. those opponents.

4) Fighter needs to inflict 10+ hp damage to each opponent, taking into account DR, etc.

5) Fighter needs to succeed in an opposed Str vs. Str OR Dex check against each opponent.

If all of the above are met, the fighter successfully knocks down the opponents surrounding him and deprives them of their full attack actions.

You're calling this powergaming?
 

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