White Wolf: What's the Deal!?

[Barastrondo]

Or as my wife (the resident Changeling freak) just added, "If the original Changeling wasn't depressing, you weren't playing it right". Her opinion obviously, not throwing wrongbadfun on people

The way I tend to look at it is like so:

In Changeling: The Dreaming, things are going all right for now. The worst day of your life has not happened yet. In fact, you might be having a great time. But the worst day of your life is waiting for you, and once it catches up with you, you can never go back to how good you have it right now.

In Changeling: The Lost, the worst day of your life has already happened. Maybe it lasted for years, but you beat it. You escaped it. It might be hunting you down for revenge, but there's no guarantee it'll catch you again.

The question of how depressing the game is depends, really, on when you want the worst day of your life.

 

[JackSmithIV]

Hunter has over 25 preview articles, a forum and a direct link to the order form on the front page. Compare with D&D, whose release schedule is three clicks deep from the home page and whose books cannot apparently, be ordered from the site. (Kind of puts your "I can't tell when it's coming out!" complaint in perspective -- well that, and you apparently *do* know all about it, so apparently for all its flaws, the company has communicated what it needed to to you -- that's a good thing.) One is not better than the other, but each has its own strategy.

I don't think anyone I've ever met has ever complained "I just can't figure out when this new Wizards product is going to launch!" if it was going to be released in the same month. Infact, go to Amazon right now and it'll list shelf dates months in advance. The reason you don't see books ordered from the site is because they don't do first-party distribution.

As for Hunter: the Vigil, the only reason I knew the shelf date for that book is because my fiance works at the gaming outlet I mentioned in my opening post. And now that you mention it, we spent almost half an hour with the managers trying to figure out whether to shelf the product or not, because no one was sure of the release date (despite the excellent release content we recieved, including a promotional poster, also dateless). We actually had to call the distributor to figure out if to shelf the product or not. They told the store that they could, because the shelf date was the day before.

Which was odd, because the posters that were recieved with the Vigil books were "Coming Soon" posters.

I wouldn't say Hunter the Vigil is doing bad... it's number 10 at Amazon in Role Playing & Fantasy and is selling more than the 4e MM and DMG over there. Also the only rpg items selling in greater numbers are those by WotC. I pre-ordered it, just because White Wolf did such a bang up job on CtL, and I love the show Supernatural on the WB... still gotta get caught up with Equinox Road though.

And I hold to the fact that White Wolf is very successful, because they have a core fanbase that buy their books (quite often for the sake of just reading them). This will probably support the company as long as they continue releasing supplements every month or so.

-IV

 

[Fedifensor]

The question of how depressing the game is depends, really, on when you want the worst day of your life.

I think it gets down to what you think about hope. In Changeling: the Dreaming, the worst day of your life is ahead of you...just like death. But you don't know when, and depending on your actions you can put it off for quite a while, and live a relatively full life.

In Changeling: the Lost, from what little I know about it, you've had what you now consider to be the worst day of your life, and it could easily happen again. You also have to deal with the psychological trauma of that day...so are you truly free?

Also, I enjoyed that you could, if you wanted to, play Changeling: the Dreaming as a lighter game. Unless you throw out the backstory, you can't really do that with Changeling: the Lost.

 

[eyebeams]

I don't think anyone I've ever met has ever complained "I just can't figure out when this new Wizards product is going to launch!"

I think this is a function of your low post count. It happens all the time here.

if it was going to be released in the same month. Infact, go to Amazon right now and it'll list shelf dates months in advance.

It does this for WW books as well.

The reason you don't see books ordered from the site is because they don't do first-party distribution.

That's where the "different strategy" thing comes in.

As for Hunter: the Vigil, the only reason I knew the shelf date for that book is because my fiance works at the gaming outlet I mentioned in my opening post. And now that you mention it, we spent almost half an hour with the managers trying to figure out whether to shelf the product or not, because no one was sure of the release date (despite the excellent release content we recieved, including a promotional poster, also dateless). We actually had to call the distributor to figure out if to shelf the product or not. They told the store that they could, because the shelf date was the day before. Which was odd, because the posters that were recieved with the Vigil books were "Coming Soon" posters.

This really sounds like you have a lousy distributor. It;s the distributor's job to know this stuff, and the company does in fact send the relevant info out. If the distributor fails, the WW site has a menu item called "Release Schedule." Or go to http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/. The stuff is all there. Your fiancee can even list her store as a place to buy WW stuff.

And I hold to the fact that White Wolf is very successful, because they have a core fanbase that buy their books (quite often for the sake of just reading them). This will probably support the company as long as they continue releasing supplements every month or so.

-IV

You're holding to something, but it ain't a fact. It's trivially easy to find people playing WW games online, or read accounts of games, or hear people talking about play issues. And that's the Internet, which as I said is part of those whole, only semi-relevant "gaming community" thing. The people I know running and playing in games are mostly disconnected from it. They buy stuff and take it to their groups. The company learned long ago that collectors aren't a great base for gaming sales. I would say your anecdotal observations are off.

 

[Barastrondo]

I think it gets down to what you think about hope. In Changeling: the Dreaming, the worst day of your life is ahead of you...just like death. But you don't know when, and depending on your actions you can put it off for quite a while, and live a relatively full life.

I should, in the interest of fairness, point out that the "depending on your actions" condition allows for just as much optimism in Lost. Yes, it's a game that has had more of the old-school fear of fairies injected into it; but it's also a game about coming home. Nothing is inevitable in Lost. Depending on your actions, you could build a new life that's stronger than the one you had before, and die contented at the end of a ripe old age surrounded by your loved ones. It's not terribly likely, mind, but within the context of a chronicle where you don't actually play all the way to your character's final fate, you can do just as well for yourself. A little less innocent wonder, of course, but on the other hand, exposure to the mortal world doesn't take away the wonder you do have.

In Changeling: the Lost, from what little I know about it, you've had what you now consider to be the worst day of your life, and it could easily happen again. You also have to deal with the psychological trauma of that day...so are you truly free?

It's a good question — but the answer is really not "no" unless you decide you want it to be. There's a criticism that's unfortunately moderately persistent about the game; I say "unfortunately" because it's inaccurate. It's the complaint that you're "playing a game about victims." Which isn't true — it's a game about survivors. It's like the difference between playing a 1st-level peasant whose village is slaughtered who winds up starving to death in a ditch and playing a 1st-level peasant whose village is slaughtered who takes up a sword and becomes a hero.

I dunno, it doesn't seem like a terribly fair standard to me. Now admittedly, it could well be that the folks who think Changeling is about victimization also don't like depressing stories about, I dunno, Batman (another person shaped by the Worst Day of His Life), but I kind of feel there's a faint double standard at play here.

Also, I enjoyed that you could, if you wanted to, play Changeling: the Dreaming as a lighter game. Unless you throw out the backstory, you can't really do that with Changeling: the Lost.

It doesn't seem to stop people, to be honest. A lot of the feedback and love I've seen the game get focuses on how Lost is ultimately pretty uplifting: it's got heavy romantic appeal, it's got a pretty empowering message (in that you have beaten one tremendous challenge and you have the cunning to do so again), and of course, there's plenty of chance to be as pretty and shallow as you like. The main difference that i seem to notice is that there's more of the creepy aspect of fairy tales — a little more Neil Gaiman and Susannah Clarke than Calvin & Hobbes.

It's not for everyone, I admit. But it was built to be a very versatile game, and I've seen plenty of proof that people have been taking advantage of that factor.