dave2008
Legend
Sorry! It wasn't you, I mentioned the wrong person!
D&D General Who Invents Spells, and How Old Are They
- Thread starter doctorbadwolf
- Start date
Kurotowa
Legend
That's definitely one way to do it. I've previously suggested that a generic Fireball or Magic Missile is what the upstart Wizard's Guild teaches, as part of their effort to standardize and codify the arcane curriculum for mass distribution. Meanwhile it's the traditionalists, the lone wizards in their towers with a handful of personal apprentices, that still teach Invoke the Sovereign Pyre and Inerrant Adamant Dart complete with all the little personal flourishes.
Another, as several people have brought up, is to attribute the unsigned spells to an ancient civilization of high magic that established all the common foundational ones. Certainly nearly every D&D setting is post-post-apocalyptic, where nations are on the rise again after a previous collapse that littered the landscape with magical ruins and lost artifacts and sealed away dangers. So it's not like it takes any major rewrites to fit that in.
Interestingly, for Eberron Keith Baker has suggested that magic (at least, as practiced by mortals) is continually on the rise. The spells in the PHB are the optimized results of intense development during the Last War. If you traveled back in time, Fireball might roll d4s, or be a 5th level spell. Sure, some ancients like the giants of Xen'drik had impressively powerful magic. But it was all in lengthy rituals or massive eldritch machines. So their stuff comes up as key plot devices, but if one of those ancients pops out of stasis and fights the PCs it's an even match.
Faolyn
(she/her)
I don't think it would be too hard to do, especially if you had enough spells or simply reskinned existing spells in some way so that they seemed different. Your PC may have a standard magic missile and you give an NPC the same spell, but it conjures a flying snake that inflicts damage-resistance-ignoring piercing damage. The PCs don't have to know that they're otherwise identical spells.
Xamnam
Loves Your Favorite Game
I like a lot of what the term The Weave implies about magic, even if it's not mechanically reflected. It nods at an interconnectedness, how everything holds everything else together, and wants to stay in a relative position. So, to me, I've always pictured "standard" magic spells as a temporary flow or direction of power that is particularly stable, a Lagrange Point of sorts. Magic Missile? As long as you can interact with the Weave, it barely requires much of a nudge, though it dissipates quickly and only channels a small chunk of power. The higher the spell level, the more it requires forcing magic out of pattern, the harder it is to pull together, the more specific of intention you need. Of course, as you become more familiar with the manipulation of magic, the more you see where seemingly paradoxical positions can actually be rather self-reinforcing.
So, your cantrips, as I like to view them, those can almost be discovered by accident, frequently are in fact. If you play with magic, it just makes sense. Was there a "first" spellcaster of it, an inventor? Sure, but it's not like they claim some unique understanding of it. The spells that still bear the creator's name are exactly that because they stand alone in un-intuitiveness. Not impossible to discover of your own volition, but not necessarily likely outside of some truly inspired spark of creation.
Now, in that context, the common spells, the ones without a name attached, are downright ancient, because they've been invented and discovered thousands of times over. I'll admit, this logic needs a bit of finessing when you get to things like 9th level ones, so I'm still trying to think how to fit those into this theory.
So, your cantrips, as I like to view them, those can almost be discovered by accident, frequently are in fact. If you play with magic, it just makes sense. Was there a "first" spellcaster of it, an inventor? Sure, but it's not like they claim some unique understanding of it. The spells that still bear the creator's name are exactly that because they stand alone in un-intuitiveness. Not impossible to discover of your own volition, but not necessarily likely outside of some truly inspired spark of creation.
Now, in that context, the common spells, the ones without a name attached, are downright ancient, because they've been invented and discovered thousands of times over. I'll admit, this logic needs a bit of finessing when you get to things like 9th level ones, so I'm still trying to think how to fit those into this theory.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I like for the players to have free reign over how they describe their characters. I think keeping a lot of setting details, like "how magic works", open and unresolved can help with this.
This get answered in lots of older D&D lore:
A spell is simply a formula to focus magical energy of the Weave(or whatever you want to call it). By use of will power you can call upon and shape a tiny bit of magic to do a desired effect. An individuals thoughts and will power do modt of the work to shape the raw magic, then through the 'lenses' of verbal, somatic and material components to get the exact desired effect.
A spell caster would sit and think, will, speak, gesture and use materials over and over and over and over again until they got just the right effect: The Published Spell.
Technically, every spellcaster has a unique, but similar spell formula.......but game rules just assume they are all the same to keep things simple.
And spellcasters need not create every spell from scratch. People do write spell formulas down, so you can just read them and learn how to cast the spell that way.
Game wise everyone has exactly the same spells as publishers are unwilling to put out books of thousands of spells.
Back in 2E in the Realms, there were some custom spells made by each spell caster, but it never caugh on much as it takes up too much space.
The players handbook spells are very generic......people have been "inventing" and "discovering" those listed spells for thousands of years. Though they are also the most common spells known to be in spell libraries.
A spell is simply a formula to focus magical energy of the Weave(or whatever you want to call it). By use of will power you can call upon and shape a tiny bit of magic to do a desired effect. An individuals thoughts and will power do modt of the work to shape the raw magic, then through the 'lenses' of verbal, somatic and material components to get the exact desired effect.
A spell caster would sit and think, will, speak, gesture and use materials over and over and over and over again until they got just the right effect: The Published Spell.
Technically, every spellcaster has a unique, but similar spell formula.......but game rules just assume they are all the same to keep things simple.
And spellcasters need not create every spell from scratch. People do write spell formulas down, so you can just read them and learn how to cast the spell that way.
Game wise everyone has exactly the same spells as publishers are unwilling to put out books of thousands of spells.
Back in 2E in the Realms, there were some custom spells made by each spell caster, but it never caugh on much as it takes up too much space.
The players handbook spells are very generic......people have been "inventing" and "discovering" those listed spells for thousands of years. Though they are also the most common spells known to be in spell libraries.
This post makes me miss Earthdawn's magic system.
In most of my settings:
Arcane Magic Spells are invented by Quasi-Deities: Titans, Demigods, Vestiges, and Immortals.
They are divine but lack divine magic. So they tap into the Arcane Magic of the God(dess) with their divinty and manipulate it. They taught the first mortal arcanists who then refined it. These refinements are the first spells.
The Quasi-Dieities are mostly super ancient. The first arcanists are either dead or quasi-deities at this point.
They can name one if they want.
EzekielRaiden
Legend
For my Jewel of the Desert (Dungeon World) game:
There are four main traditions of magic in the Tarrakhuna, the region where the game is set. Those are the Waziri Order (wizards), the Safiqi Priesthood (clerics and paladins), the Kahina (druids and shaman), and the Rawuna (bards.) There are underlying common elements for them, but also ways in which they are totally distinct.
Waziri magic is fundamentally analytical and imitative. It can be extremely dangerous to cast Waziri-type magic without a proven arcane formula first (as in, "blow up a whole building" dangerous), so Waziri mages tend to be very conservative with their spellcasting. (In theory this could be abused, but the whole "you will definitely die and probably kill all your friends too if you do this" angle helps reduce that issue.) They look down on other disciplines because most forms of magic they can imitate or recompile into Waziri format, which is it's greatest strength, but they are incredibly jealous of their work and thus advancement overall can be very slow. Hence, the reason everyone uses the same Fireball spell is that that's a formula which escaped the jealous clutches of its creator and which provides provable, consistent results. It's sort of like learning new chemical reactions; once the secret gets out, people will copy that reaction rather than trying ti reinvent things themselves every time. New spells can totally be developed! But that sort of thing either happens very slowly or only arises from being able to analyze (usually destructively) magical effects created by other disciplines. Few Waziri can heal, but it is possible for them to learn (it's just very difficult, as anatomy is difficult to account for in mathematical formulae.)
Safiqi magic is the magic of faith, exemplars, and banishment/judgment. The priesthood studies theology and the lives of saints in order to understand the divine and how mortals have called upon its power. The Safiqi (lay and clergy) worship the One, a being they claim is the infinite and ineffable creator of all that exists. The One, they claim, cannot be understood in Their entirety but must instead be understood through Their infinite aspects or facets that are individually finite and digestible. The "prime" aspect is the Great Architect, the facet understood as regarding creating, preserving, planning, and ruling; other known facets include the Unknown Knower (knowledge, stealth, research, concealment), the Stalwart Soldier (reactive protection, loyalty, hardiness, play/sport, solidarity), the Resolute Seeker (hunting, purification, revelation, proactive protection), and the Soothing Flame (light, healing, fire, community, kindness.) Most Safiqi spellcasters dedicate themselves to some specific facet of the One, which shapes the manner of how they do magical things, but not the specific spells they have access to. The Safiqi can do a lot, but they are completely incapable of calming the spirits of the unquiet dead; they can rebuke or temporarily banish them, but cannot resolve the problem, only the next group can. Because they all share one common religious origin, their spells are all the same.
Kahina can be split into two groups: druids and shaman. The former, also known as Kahina of the "living" spirits, interface with spiritual/primal energies as they manifest in the world itself, moreso than in the spirit world. Hence, they learn to take the power of "living" animal spirits into themselves (shape shift) and work with active, concrete manifestations of natural energy like elementals. Shaman, or Kahina of the "dead" spirits, tend to be more in tune with the subtle background of spirit activity; they see the spirit of a forest that slowly coalesces from the spirits of many trees living in the same space for a long time, that sort of thing. They also contact the more distant, "archetypal" spirits that permanently reside in the spirit world. Instead of bringing these spirits into themselves, they bind spirits to totems and call upon those totemic spirits for aid. Unlike the Safiqi, all Kahina can lay the unquiet dead to rest (druids pull dead spirits back into the current flow of life energy; shaman send dead spirits on to their final rest in the spirit world.) However, Kahina cannot banish otherworldly spirits from the world, at least not powerful ones like devils and demons. Most Kahina practice magic in a way that doesn't involve "spells," but those who do are tapping a common wellspring (the knowledge of the ancestors as obtained from the spirit world and transcendental spirit journeys), so the few who do cast spells proper do so in similar ways.
Finally the Rawuna, the bards who paint the sky with their tales, are the most eclectic and hard to pin down. Which is quite fitting, really. Most Rawuna get started with basic Waziri education before learning from the Nomad Tribes' oral historians. Rawuna can learn from almost anyone, sort of like Waziri, but do so in a poetic, humanities-focused kind of way rather than the STEM-style formulae if the Waziri. The way this has manifested in game was a player (effectively) breaking down and rebuilding the story of the life of a particular Safiqi saint, not as a theological study, but as a tale to grip the soul and fill the mind with beautiful images (allowing the party Bard, after sufficient effort, to cleanse poisons and toxins with his Arcane Art, in addition to the standard effects.) Rawuna thus don't really have "spells" in the usual rigid sense, but just as four-chord songs are super common, you can find common themes (pun intended) in Rawuna practice.
The only other major form of magic is a dark reflection of Safiqi magic, practiced by a breakaway heretical sect, the Zil al-Ghurab or (as we more commonly say it) the "Raven-Shadows." They're a fanatically devoted assassin-cult who practice shadow magic, which is related to Safiqi magic but much more aggressive and generally less supportive. This isn't a form of magic most people even know exists, though, so it's much less well understood than the others. It has some connection to devils, however, and retains the Safiqi emphasis on banishing influences which do not belong in the world (and the inability to get rid of restless dead who are, properly speaking, native to the world and thus not outside influences to be banished.)
The players themselves, across two games, helped to define what the magic system was of this world. I mostly just played a guiding/coordinating role, with the ideas largely coming from the players. We haven't explored the depths of Rawuna magic much, despite having a Bard, but that appears to be changing. We'll see what further revelations await!
There are four main traditions of magic in the Tarrakhuna, the region where the game is set. Those are the Waziri Order (wizards), the Safiqi Priesthood (clerics and paladins), the Kahina (druids and shaman), and the Rawuna (bards.) There are underlying common elements for them, but also ways in which they are totally distinct.
Waziri magic is fundamentally analytical and imitative. It can be extremely dangerous to cast Waziri-type magic without a proven arcane formula first (as in, "blow up a whole building" dangerous), so Waziri mages tend to be very conservative with their spellcasting. (In theory this could be abused, but the whole "you will definitely die and probably kill all your friends too if you do this" angle helps reduce that issue.) They look down on other disciplines because most forms of magic they can imitate or recompile into Waziri format, which is it's greatest strength, but they are incredibly jealous of their work and thus advancement overall can be very slow. Hence, the reason everyone uses the same Fireball spell is that that's a formula which escaped the jealous clutches of its creator and which provides provable, consistent results. It's sort of like learning new chemical reactions; once the secret gets out, people will copy that reaction rather than trying ti reinvent things themselves every time. New spells can totally be developed! But that sort of thing either happens very slowly or only arises from being able to analyze (usually destructively) magical effects created by other disciplines. Few Waziri can heal, but it is possible for them to learn (it's just very difficult, as anatomy is difficult to account for in mathematical formulae.)
Safiqi magic is the magic of faith, exemplars, and banishment/judgment. The priesthood studies theology and the lives of saints in order to understand the divine and how mortals have called upon its power. The Safiqi (lay and clergy) worship the One, a being they claim is the infinite and ineffable creator of all that exists. The One, they claim, cannot be understood in Their entirety but must instead be understood through Their infinite aspects or facets that are individually finite and digestible. The "prime" aspect is the Great Architect, the facet understood as regarding creating, preserving, planning, and ruling; other known facets include the Unknown Knower (knowledge, stealth, research, concealment), the Stalwart Soldier (reactive protection, loyalty, hardiness, play/sport, solidarity), the Resolute Seeker (hunting, purification, revelation, proactive protection), and the Soothing Flame (light, healing, fire, community, kindness.) Most Safiqi spellcasters dedicate themselves to some specific facet of the One, which shapes the manner of how they do magical things, but not the specific spells they have access to. The Safiqi can do a lot, but they are completely incapable of calming the spirits of the unquiet dead; they can rebuke or temporarily banish them, but cannot resolve the problem, only the next group can. Because they all share one common religious origin, their spells are all the same.
Kahina can be split into two groups: druids and shaman. The former, also known as Kahina of the "living" spirits, interface with spiritual/primal energies as they manifest in the world itself, moreso than in the spirit world. Hence, they learn to take the power of "living" animal spirits into themselves (shape shift) and work with active, concrete manifestations of natural energy like elementals. Shaman, or Kahina of the "dead" spirits, tend to be more in tune with the subtle background of spirit activity; they see the spirit of a forest that slowly coalesces from the spirits of many trees living in the same space for a long time, that sort of thing. They also contact the more distant, "archetypal" spirits that permanently reside in the spirit world. Instead of bringing these spirits into themselves, they bind spirits to totems and call upon those totemic spirits for aid. Unlike the Safiqi, all Kahina can lay the unquiet dead to rest (druids pull dead spirits back into the current flow of life energy; shaman send dead spirits on to their final rest in the spirit world.) However, Kahina cannot banish otherworldly spirits from the world, at least not powerful ones like devils and demons. Most Kahina practice magic in a way that doesn't involve "spells," but those who do are tapping a common wellspring (the knowledge of the ancestors as obtained from the spirit world and transcendental spirit journeys), so the few who do cast spells proper do so in similar ways.
Finally the Rawuna, the bards who paint the sky with their tales, are the most eclectic and hard to pin down. Which is quite fitting, really. Most Rawuna get started with basic Waziri education before learning from the Nomad Tribes' oral historians. Rawuna can learn from almost anyone, sort of like Waziri, but do so in a poetic, humanities-focused kind of way rather than the STEM-style formulae if the Waziri. The way this has manifested in game was a player (effectively) breaking down and rebuilding the story of the life of a particular Safiqi saint, not as a theological study, but as a tale to grip the soul and fill the mind with beautiful images (allowing the party Bard, after sufficient effort, to cleanse poisons and toxins with his Arcane Art, in addition to the standard effects.) Rawuna thus don't really have "spells" in the usual rigid sense, but just as four-chord songs are super common, you can find common themes (pun intended) in Rawuna practice.
The only other major form of magic is a dark reflection of Safiqi magic, practiced by a breakaway heretical sect, the Zil al-Ghurab or (as we more commonly say it) the "Raven-Shadows." They're a fanatically devoted assassin-cult who practice shadow magic, which is related to Safiqi magic but much more aggressive and generally less supportive. This isn't a form of magic most people even know exists, though, so it's much less well understood than the others. It has some connection to devils, however, and retains the Safiqi emphasis on banishing influences which do not belong in the world (and the inability to get rid of restless dead who are, properly speaking, native to the world and thus not outside influences to be banished.)
The players themselves, across two games, helped to define what the magic system was of this world. I mostly just played a guiding/coordinating role, with the ideas largely coming from the players. We haven't explored the depths of Rawuna magic much, despite having a Bard, but that appears to be changing. We'll see what further revelations await!
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Amateurs! If you can't take out an entire city block, it's not worth doing!
D&D really does need a magic system with built in consequences. As I have mentioned, I really like Earthdawn's answer to "wizards" and think D&D could implement such a thing (albeit less married to assumed setting elements). Alternatively, having to gather energy or Weave spells or whatever would be a viable alternative. The "it just works" thing for D&D magic is not satisfying.Amateurs! If you can't take out an entire city block, it's not worth doing!
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
To me, the existence of spells with names that connect them to specific inventors implies that spells not named this way don’t have known inventors, which certainly could be because they’re old and the inventor’s name is lost to history. But there could be many other reasons. Maybe some spells are basic enough it doesn’t make sense to attribute their “invention” to anyone. I’m pretty sure anyone who can do magic could pretty easily come up with the idea of summoning a ball of fire, and whatever Arcane formulae are involved have probably been arrived at independently by countless mages from across the world. I’m sure there must be plenty of spells that were invented by anonymous mages as well. Maybe some mages prefer to keep their spells “open source” as it were. There are all sorts of reasons a spell might not have an inventor mentioned in its name, being old is just one of them.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Gotta love Kieth for boldly taking the exact opposite of Tolkien’s approach, wherein all the best stuff was created in the ancient past, and everything new is just pale imitations of those older, more perfect forms.
What Baker is forgetting-- or, rather, is embracing what D&D was forgetting-- is that new tech was never safe and sure. Aside from a singular specific subclass, there is no concern about the operability of magic in D&D. That surely wasn't true in the great wars of the 20th century where mines and mortars and guns and bombs didn't always go off as expected.
MichaelSomething
Legend
At least some spells are the result of carcinization.
Kurotowa
Legend
Yeah, that's Tolkien's ethos alright. One part rejection of the modern industrial world and the horrors of World War I, one part a particular line of Catholic thought holding that the world was perfect at the beginning in the Garden of Eden and it's been all downhill since. For better or for worse, Middle Earth was his personal creation and it really reflect him. It's just, being one of the foundations of a new genre, his every little quirk got encoded as a new tradition.
Faolyn
(she/her)
I've always liked this idea--Keith Baker's idea, I mean. I liked it in GURPS Technomancy as well. It makes magic into not necessarily a science, but still a thing its users are willing to practice with and refine for greater results.
In earlier editions of D&D, there were tons of "improved" spells, although of course they were of higher level, for game balance reasons. Most of those have gone away in 5e, although Level Up has rare spells, which are all versions of standard spells that are (nearly?) always named after someone. They're usually somewhat more powerful than their base spells in one way or another, but that's balanced by their actual rarity. If you want one, you literally have to find it or spend a lot of time and money researching it; you can't just get one when you reach a new level.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Yep. And to be clear, I do like Tolkien’s work, including that aspect of it. It’s just also nice to see fantasy that does something different.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I feel like it’s a very versimilar way to use magic, or at least the sort of harder magic you see in most modern fantasy where it works by predictable, testable, repeatable mechanisms. Such magic “realistically” would be iterated and improved upon just like any other technology (in the literal sense of the practical application of specialized knowledge).
Benjamin Olson
Hero
The Magician climbed the stairs. Midnight found him in his study, poring through leather-bound tomes and untidy portfolios … At one time a thousand or more runes, spells, incantations, curses, and sorceries had been known. The reach of Grand Motholam — Ascolais, the Ide of Kauchique, Almery to the South, the Land of the Falling Wall to the East — swarmed with sorcerers of every description, of whom the chief was the Arch-Necromancer Phandaal. A hundred spells Phandaal personally had formulated — though rumor said that demons whispered at his ear when he wrought magic. Pontecilla the Pious, then ruler of Grand Motholam, put Phandaal to torment, and after a terrible night, he killed Phandaal and outlawed sorcery throughout the land. The wizards of Grand Motholam fled like beetles under a strong light; the lore was dispersed and forgotten, until now, at this dim time, with the sun dark, wilderness obscuring Ascolais, and the white city Kaiin half in ruins, only a few more than a hundred spells remained to the knowledge of man. Of these, Mazirian had access to seventy-three, and gradually, by stratagem and negotiation, was securing the others.
Mazirian made a selection from his books and with great effort forced five spells upon his brain: Phandaal’s Gyrator, Felojun’s Second Hypnotic Spell, The Excellent Prismatic Spray, The Charm of Untiring Nourishment, and the Spell of the Omnipotent Sphere. This accomplished, Mazirian drank wine and retired to his couch.
-Vance, Jack. Tales of the Dying Earth
While on the one hand it is silly to defer overly to Dying Earth as somehow authoritative just because it was a particular influence of D&D magic, I think it has always been a particular influence for how D&D magic was conceptualized. Furthermore, since its post-apocalyptic setting is evocative of how the middle ages conceptualized lost knowledge of the ancients, and lot of the broader folklore of spells is tied to that particular cultural history, it taps into a broader trend in how magic is treated in fantasy.
Even where D&D settings eschew the magic as lost knowledge thing, the underlying assumptions of the Wizard class is that spells are a thing you find as loot in ancient dungeons, just as the underlying assumption for magical items is that you find the ones made in ancient times and that these are on par with and in many cases better than the ones from current times. Whatever attitude your setting takes there is a certain amount of "we pale before the magical mastery of the ancients" still baked into the basic game assumptions of D&D.
So I think imagining the spells in the PHB as just the remnants of some vaster trove of what spells were once known is, to some degree, the baseline assumption implied by the Wizard class. However, having all the spells assigned to spell lists that any character of sufficient level and class can choose, and having only one class who needs to discover their spells (and even they also get 2 each level for free) undermines this implicit mythology.
On the whole I think D&D's current implicit spell paradigm is very much "these are simply the spells that exist as intrinsic to the Universe". And since Cleric and Druid style prepared spell casting is the type that most demands this on implied lore grounds (the ones who wake up every day and decide which of all the firmly set spells of their class they will choose to access that day), and OneD&D has decided to turn all casters into Clerics and Druids, the future assumed lore is much more firmly "these are the spells that simply exist".
Mazirian made a selection from his books and with great effort forced five spells upon his brain: Phandaal’s Gyrator, Felojun’s Second Hypnotic Spell, The Excellent Prismatic Spray, The Charm of Untiring Nourishment, and the Spell of the Omnipotent Sphere. This accomplished, Mazirian drank wine and retired to his couch.
-Vance, Jack. Tales of the Dying Earth
While on the one hand it is silly to defer overly to Dying Earth as somehow authoritative just because it was a particular influence of D&D magic, I think it has always been a particular influence for how D&D magic was conceptualized. Furthermore, since its post-apocalyptic setting is evocative of how the middle ages conceptualized lost knowledge of the ancients, and lot of the broader folklore of spells is tied to that particular cultural history, it taps into a broader trend in how magic is treated in fantasy.
Even where D&D settings eschew the magic as lost knowledge thing, the underlying assumptions of the Wizard class is that spells are a thing you find as loot in ancient dungeons, just as the underlying assumption for magical items is that you find the ones made in ancient times and that these are on par with and in many cases better than the ones from current times. Whatever attitude your setting takes there is a certain amount of "we pale before the magical mastery of the ancients" still baked into the basic game assumptions of D&D.
So I think imagining the spells in the PHB as just the remnants of some vaster trove of what spells were once known is, to some degree, the baseline assumption implied by the Wizard class. However, having all the spells assigned to spell lists that any character of sufficient level and class can choose, and having only one class who needs to discover their spells (and even they also get 2 each level for free) undermines this implicit mythology.
On the whole I think D&D's current implicit spell paradigm is very much "these are simply the spells that exist as intrinsic to the Universe". And since Cleric and Druid style prepared spell casting is the type that most demands this on implied lore grounds (the ones who wake up every day and decide which of all the firmly set spells of their class they will choose to access that day), and OneD&D has decided to turn all casters into Clerics and Druids, the future assumed lore is much more firmly "these are the spells that simply exist".
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