D&D 5E Who is best in damage output Barbarians? Monks?

[doctorbadwolf]

The problem is Evasion comes online at 7th level, and your build includes THREE FEATS. That takes a LONG time to come togther AND you sacrifice at least 2 bumps to the stats that are responsible for your accuracy, your damage, your AC (because they decided the Monk should have crappy HP despite not being harder to hit than anybody else) and potentially your Stunning Strike Save DC.

And now you're a guy in cloth within striking distance of the rest of the enemy forces with your little dinky d8 and middling CON (because you realy need to pump DEX and WIS). It's not an ideal location.



Spamming Stunning Strike on a legendary opponent is fine, but then you're basically out of ki until next rest.

The Monk CAN be good, it just takes WAY too much effort compared to a Barbarian to be just as effective, and in less generic situations. It looks simple on the surface but the ammount of system mastery and calculation of risk is just... just too much for what it accomplishes if you ask me.

And the idea of the Monk as the guy who 'locks down casters' just feels like an after-the-fact justification. A build the community came up with SPECIFICALLY to make the Monk look like a good, useful, class. Can it actually do something else well?

The build doesn't require the feats to "come together", they just add to it.

I've never been stuck in the midst of the enemies as a monk, unless I chose to be there (such as with my shadar-kai monk teleporting into their midst and becoming insubstantial until the start of his next turn, killing his intended target, and then soaking some damage before getting back out of there).

Regarding the part of your post replying to someone else;

Stunning strike on a legendary creature can often be vastly more valuable than dealing more damage. When it isn't, you just hit more instead. The monk has that option.

Also, the monk as anti-caster is...something that I've been seeing literally since 5e launched, so...no. It's not any sort of "after the fact justification". It's simply something the monk is very, very, good at.

None of which requires any especial system mastery. I've seen plenty of noobs play monks very effectively without any more help building than I'd give to a barbarian player.

 

[Undrave]

I've never been stuck in the midst of the enemies as a monk, unless I chose to be there (such as with my shadar-kai monk teleporting into their midst and becoming insubstantial until the start of his next turn, killing his intended target, and then soaking some damage before getting back out of there).

How do you 'lock down' a caster and yet aren't stuck in the midsts of enemies?!

Stunning strike on a legendary creature can often be vastly more valuable than dealing more damage. When it isn't, you just hit more instead. The monk has that option.

I get that, but the Monk needs to mind his Ki usage because using Ki can be essential to being able to get out of sticky situations.

I just find the Monk underwhelming in combat, which shouldn't happen because it should be their specialty!

 

[Helldritch]

Ok... Here is a scenario that happened in my game. 12th level monk.
Magic Items: Gauntlet of ogre power, ring of protection, night vision gogles and amulet of health. He drank a potion of growth. (or he could get the enlarge spell by a friend).
Dex: 20, Wisdom 15. Feats: Mobility (for being human), Mage Killer. The monk has both athletics and accrobatics.

The monk needs to get to get to the evil wizard. She goes straigth to him and try to grapple. The Mage is grappled. Mage tries to get out by casting misty step. Opportunity attack from the monk, spell fails.
Round two. Monk brings the mage around for his whole movement toward the group, walks on the walls, because she can, and at the end of her movement, punches the poor sod for 2 attacks because grappled creatures can only attack with small weapons (she used his bonus action to move as his move was halved since the wizard was not two size smaller than her). She keeps the grapple (no action required), other players smash the mage and it is over for the bad guy.

Round three, the monk runs, takes a grapple on the big fighter with a two handed sword (champion NPC). Succeeds because she has the advantage for growth and gauntlet. The figther tries to get away but fails. The monk happily punches the hell out of the fighter with four attacks and moves away from the main fight as to be alone with the fighter. It took a while but the monk got out the best out of this combat as the players were attacking other enemies around.

The monk shut down two important enemies without any problem. He took a beating against the fighter but the fighter had to use a dagger to fight the monk. Every try to get away from the grapple used up his attack sequence. The two handed sword was irrelevant as the grappled fighter could not use it. He was reduced to using a dagger for 1d4+5 dmg...

Yes, it was a perfect case scenario. But strangely, it happens a lot with monks.

Edit : modified the pronouns. For some reason the auto corrector was putting he instead of she... vo figure...

Ps: And do not tell her. She would punch me...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

How do you 'lock down' a caster and yet aren't stuck in the midsts of enemies?!

If I’m locking down a mage, I’ve chosen to be there. But beyond that, if the entire enemy team is able to swarm me when I target the mage, then I can simply hit and run the mage instead. Ya know, different tactics for different fights. Like pretty much every character I’ve ever seen in any game. *

I get that, but the Monk needs to mind his Ki usage because using Ki can be essential to being able to get out of sticky situations.

I just find the Monk underwhelming in combat, which shouldn't happen because it should be their specialty!

The monk doesn’t need to spend ki to run faster than everyone else while having better AC than other Dex based characters, and depending on subclass may have other at-will tools to move without reprisal. Even the Drunken masters mobility feature triggers on using Flurry of Blows, which means they aren’t choosing between safe mobility and damage output.

Meanwhile, the Barbarian is usually not much more than HP and damage, and what they are beyond that rarely comes from their class.

*The difference is that the monk has an easier time than most choosing between those tactics.

 

[Mort]

Spamming Stunning Strike on a legendary opponent is fine, but then you're basically out of ki until next rest.

Next short rest, it's an important distinction. If the DM is allowing enough short rests the monk should be able to ration ki effectively. I used to think monks didn't get near enough ki, but I've changed my opinion, mostly. I still think they could use a bit more, but having watched one of my players ration ki very well, it's not bad with practice.

The Monk CAN be good, it just takes WAY too much effort compared to a Barbarian to be just as effective, and in less generic situations. It looks simple on the surface but the ammount of system mastery and calculation of risk is just... just too much for what it accomplishes if you ask me.

The monk does take a bit more restraint and planning than the barbarian. That said, a player that unwisely uses rage at the drop of a hat will quickly get himself into trouble too, at least in my campaign.

And the idea of the Monk as the guy who 'locks down casters' just feels like an after-the-fact justification. A build the community came up with SPECIFICALLY to make the Monk look like a good, useful, class. Can it actually do something else well?

Monks make excellent hit and runners and can be very effective in that role.

 

[Torquar]

Ok... Here is a scenario that happened in my game. 12th level monk.
Magic Items: Gauntlet of ogre power, ring of protection, night vision gogles and amulet of health. He drank a potion of growth. (or he could get the enlarge spell by a friend).
Dex: 20, Wisdom 15. Feats: Mobility (for being human), Mage Killer. The monk has both athletics and accrobatics.

The monk needs to get to get to the evil wizard. She goes straigth to him and try to grapple. The Mage is grappled. Mage tries to get out by casting misty step. Opportunity attack from the monk, spell fails.
Round two. Monk brings the mage around for his whole movement toward the group, walks on the walls, because she can, and at the end of her movement, punches the poor sod for 2 attacks because grappled creatures can only attack with small weapons (she used his bonus action to move as his move was halved since the wizard was not two size smaller than her). She keeps the grapple (no action required), other players smash the mage and it is over for the bad guy.

Round three, the monk runs, takes a grapple on the big fighter with a two handed sword (champion NPC). Succeeds because she has the advantage for growth and gauntlet. The figther tries to get away but fails. The monk happily punches the hell out of the fighter with four attacks and moves away from the main fight as to be alone with the fighter. It took a while but the monk got out the best out of this combat as the players were attacking other enemies around.

The monk shut down two important enemies without any problem. He took a beating against the fighter but the fighter had to use a dagger to fight the monk. Every try to get away from the grapple used up his attack sequence. The two handed sword was irrelevant as the grappled fighter could not use it. He was reduced to using a dagger for 1d4+5 dmg...

Yes, it was a perfect case scenario. But strangely, it happens a lot with monks.

Edit : modified the pronouns. For some reason the auto corrector was putting he instead of she... vo figure...

Ps: And do not tell her. She would punch me...

+
I think you're using house rules here. Being Grappled doesn't prevent the Champion from using a Greatsword.

 

[Seramus]

Mage tries to get out by casting misty step. Opportunity attack from the monk, spell fails.
[...]
because grappled creatures can only attack with small weapons
[...]
The two handed sword was irrelevant as the grappled fighter could not use it. He was reduced to using a dagger for 1d4+5 dmg...

What?

 

[Mort]

+
I think you're using house rules here. Being Grappled doesn't prevent the Champion from using a Greatsword.

This is likely a remnant from 3e where a grappler could only attack with a light weapon. No such rule in 5e.

Though it certainly makes sense that the person doing the grapple can't attack with a two handed weapon as at least one hand needs to be maintaining the grapple (the description specifies you need a free hand).

Regardless - no such restriction for the person/creature being grappled.

 

[Undrave]

The monk needs to get to get to the evil wizard. She goes straigth to him and try to grapple. The Mage is grappled. Mage tries to get out by casting misty step. Opportunity attack from the monk, spell fails.

That's not a rule in 5e. What the heck?! Mage Slayer only affects Concentration Check.

 

[Mort]

That's not a rule in 5e. What the heck?! Mage Slayer only affects Concentration Check.

Mage Slayer also allows you to use your reaction to attack anyone within 5' of you who casts a spell - in a campaign with lots of enemy spellcasters it's a top tier feat.