D&D General Who is this made for (Not Beginners) - the New D&D Starter Set

[Micah Sweet]

Personally, I'd say a LOT of people in the thread. However, because they are pro-WotC no matter what WotC puts out, it's not really seen that way on these forums.

I'm okay with it. At least I've expressed my thoughts on the box (and no one here has really changed my feelings on it. There's been about two posts that actually sort of addressed my concerns, but they didn't actually cover WHY the problem happened in the first place except to blame everything but the box. All my players, me, anything but WotC is to be blamed.

That said, I think I may be the ONLY one here that let new players actually just try to figure things out on their own without an experienced player to guide them...

I haven't seen anyone else replicate that experience thus far...except to say that my players must be bad people or something to that degree since they didn't figure out what was "obvious" to the experienced players here.

That even I found difficulties (The Saving throw thing is an excellent example, it tells you the wrong location of where to find the information, it is not actually listed under Saving Throws or where you'd expect to find it...etc) and no one has really addressed that except to...well...no one has actually really addressed that problem (one person pointed out it could be found in one sentence in a section unrelated to it and which was not even referenced under Saving Throws in the glossary or defined section) of misdirection in the rules and not being clear.

So, yes, I feel a LOT of people here have said our group was badwrongfunning and I'm happy none of those players I had are on these forums because they'd probably be heavily insulted and if they DID have fun, after reading the comments in these thread may decide it's just not worth it.

That said, it's not something that truly bothers me all that much. I just wanted to make sure that if people are looking into this, they are forwarned that this box is NOT going to be as straightforward or as simple as many of those reviews out there are saying it is. I think I made that clear and abundant, and others have made their opinions that they do not agree with me. That's a good thing. To have a difference of opinions where each can read the differences makes for a better view than just one side (and up until my singular post I think only one side has been expressed thus far, that of experienced players rather than someone who had total newbies unfamiliar with D&D try to figure it out on their own out of the box without the experienced player helping them at first. I've done this same thing with other introductory sets in the past as well, so this isn't my first time doing this. It IS the first time it turned out so badly though).

A Starter box should be that. A thing where you can sit down and basically start playing off the bat pretty quickly. This box is not that. If a Starter Box is not a Starter box...what then is it's purpose.

I do agree it would be hard for any of us to judge the suitability of this box for completely new players without giving it to some and letting them learn to play it without help. Unless you've done that (as the OP has to some degree), we can't learn how it's intended to work because our own experience colors our choices and reasoning.

 

[Micah Sweet]

For experienced players, I'd say this module is actually pretty decent. It's a decent sandbox an experienced DM can do a LOT with.

Considering the cost of most adventures coming out today from WotC, this one won't break the bank. It has a lot of components that make it extra pretty as well.

My opinion on it in regards to experienced players is completely different than what my opinion is on it for New Players who haven't played D&D before. In fact, I'd say the both are opposite of each other (big no for new players, a really good deal for experienced players).

You think most experienced players would make good use of all that cardboard? The tokens, character boards, etc? Or are you just talking about the adventure and maps?

 

[KYRON45]

Is the comment you are responding to here so offensive that you see ample reason why people would go out of their way to avoid hearing me?

Keep in mind that you asked me to clarify before you read the following.

It is entirely possible that I have never been offended by anything.
It is possible that people find the "tone" of your messages aggressive, condescending, and possibly hostile. You come of as a pedantic know it all whose every word should be accepted as law/scripture. Often times you demand that people cite resources for their comments and you often comment that what they say is their opinion and should not be stated as fact. I could go on, but i feel like i'd end up getting banned from the site all together if I'm not already on my way.

I have no problem with your flavor of discourse on a personal level. I think that we all can do better though.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Keep in mind that you asked me to clarify before you read the following.

It is entirely possible that I have never been offended by anything.
It is possible that people find the "tone" of your messages aggressive, condescending, and possibly hostile. You come of as a pedantic know it all whose every word should be accepted as law/scripture. Often times you demand that people cite resources for their comments and you often comment that what they say is their opinion and should not be stated as fact. I could go on, but i feel like i'd end up getting banned from the site all together if I'm not already on my way.

I have no problem with your flavor of discourse on a personal level. I think that we all can do better though.

Fair enough. Do you notice that I also try to never claim my own position as fact either? No opinion on a discussion forum is more or less valid than another, certainly including my own.

I tend to treat folks the way I would want to be treated, or at least I try. If someone were to complain to me that I'm claiming opinion as fact in a comment, I would review what they're referencing and apologize if it seems to me they're right. That seems fair.

On the other hand, I have no problem debating a particular point for a longer time than many others in my experience, so if you're talking about that you may have a point.

 

[KYRON45]

Fair enough. Do you notice that I also try to never claim my own position as fact either? No opinion on a discussion forum is more or less valid than another, certainly including my own.

I tend to treat folks the way I would want to be treated, or at least I try. If someone were to complain to me that I'm claiming opinion as fact in a comment, I would review what they're referencing and apologize if it seems to me they're right. That seems fair.

On the other hand, I have no problem debating a particular point for a longer time than many others in my experience, so if you're talking about that you may have a point.

Good debate requires that people disagree.
I'm not qualified to discuss why people are they way they are and react the way that they do.
I wish you well in your travels.

 

[Imaro]

1. I do play 5e, just not WotC's game. You know this. And you know how influential WotC is, so anything they do shifts the industry and the community whether I like it or not.

Ok correction...You dont play or buy anything D&D... this is a thread specifically about a D&D product (not a general thread about the wider hobby or your version of 5e) so without any actual investment in the product and little to no firsthand knowledge of it... what is the purpose of your comments on it? Im genuinely curious...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok correction...You dont play or buy anything D&D... this is a thread specifically about a D&D product (not a general thread about the wider hobby or your version of 5e) so without any actual investment in the product and little to no firsthand knowledge of it... what is the purpose of your comments on it? Im genuinely curious...

I'm curious about it because it will serve as the first RPG experience for a lot more people than any game I would play. The same reason I express interest in 5.5 (a game I have no desire to play personally, but which nonetheless strongly affects the community of which I am a part).

 

[Thommy H-H]

As I said, a lot of people have said I was wrong, but almost NO ONE has actually addressed the issues that I pointed out.

Well, you started by claiming the set didn't even include the rules for how to play the game, which is demonstrably false. I'm still not clear on the confusion over the spell save DCs, since they're right there on the character boards - you just didn't spot them somehow. I'm not sure that's a problem with the product itself or evidence of its unsuitability for novices. And everything you've told us about the game you ran seems to indicate that you showed up without doing any kind of prep, totally unfamiliar with the components and the included instructions (since you didn't think there were any), then spent half an hour figuring it all out. Which, you know, is pretty good going! It's just better to do that before the actual session imo.

Oh, also I'm quite confused about the thing where you say you watched videos to figure out how to play because there weren't any rules! Because you're an experienced DM, so don't you already know the rules? I could see the (mistaken) belief that rules weren't included being a mark against it in an objective sense, but for you personally, what was the problem?

 

[Hussar]

That even I found difficulties (The Saving throw thing is an excellent example, it tells you the wrong location of where to find the information, it is not actually listed under Saving Throws or where you'd expect to find it...etc) and no one has really addressed that except to...well...no one has actually really addressed that problem (one person pointed out it could be found in one sentence in a section unrelated to it and which was not even referenced under Saving Throws in the glossary or defined section) of misdirection in the rules and not being clear.

Again, what? It's RIGHT THERE on the character sheet in a big red box. Like... how can you miss that? You're telling me that five adults, looking at sixteen class boards couldn't find that honking big box right next to your attack bonuses? Seriously? That's not people badwrongfunning you. That's incredulity that five adults had that much difficulty seeing something that's pretty easy to spot.

 

[Hussar]

Then someone casts a spell...but what's the Save DC? I can figure it out, but we can't find where it is supposed to be. We read the book...IT"S NOT THERE! It simply says to look on the Spell card. The Spell cast was Thunderwave...but it doesn't say on the Card what the Save DC is. It says it's a Constitution Save, but nowhere does it list the Save DC! So...what to do!

This is the original point you claimed.

The save DC is in a honking big red box on the character board. IOW, it's on the character sheet EXACTLY WHERE it's supposed to be. That's where save DC's always are. On the character sheet. The save DC of a character's spells have been on the character sheet since 3e. The calculation might be in the PHB, but, the Basic set doesn't need the calculation. It's just got the raw number.

You ask, "What to do?"

The answer is, "Look at your character sheet." Same as the answer to pretty much every question regarding what a character can do.