Who "Owns" Old PC's?

[Skade]

I have a similar problem. For a very long time it as "understood" that the characters used in my games were my property if it ever came to publishing. This was mostly because Hickman and Wies obviously owned all the characters that were used in their games.

Other than that, the players could do whatever they wanted with them. Sounds funny I know. This is just a strange concept, but when I first found out that characters made for one of my games were being used in another game, it actually hurt my feelings. Particularly because the characters were now evil. Mechanically the same, just evil. Why not just change the name? Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that now all characters non mechanical parts should remain in the game for which they were created. Anyone can use the stats, but the concept and the name should just be forgotten outside of that campaign. The only exception being if the player wants them to be used.

 

[Oaken25]

Aye,

Well as I said on my other thread, I guess the only one's who can decide this really are the Courts. Me and the player straightened it out, but I really didn't have to, cause they had a problem with keeping the name of the character and last I knew you can't copy write names or names are interectual property. (And no I can't spell that sorry. )

And no I wasn't trying to troll, and there was no reason to get vulgure about it and start swearing. I was asking a serious question and was seeing if any one else has ever had this problem. Ive been a DM for years and have always used PC's as NPC's after the games have ended, cause many of the PC's have changed the game world in some form or another and have become part of the history of my game world.

 

[Atma]

I don't think anyone is saying you should change the history of your game world. I think what people are trying to say is that you can still do that without actually using the NPC. For example, if the character killed the dragon, you can just make reference to that, they don't actually need to converse with Alric the Slayer.

Trust me, I'm not a lawyer but my major does put me in contact with a lot of law classes and materials. If it came down to a court battle over who owned the intellectual property of his character, he would win, and rather quickly. Characters are the intellectual property of their creator unless he's signed a waiver.

Sorry about the vulgarity if you were referring to the damn, it wasn't directed at you so much as my current DM, who has now had us deal with the same old PC -> NPC in the last 4 campaigns *sigh *

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: Who "Owns" Old PC's?

Are you F-ing KIDDING me?!

Does the DM have the "right"??!

I can't believe I'm hearing this - either this is a masterful troll, or this board is SO DM-biased that they've lost it.

Listen up : a PC belongs to the player.
Straight out.

The PC is ALL the player has in the game.
That's it -he doesn't control anything else - everything is at the whim and whimsy of the DM, and now you see no problem with going against a player's wishes (whatever those personal reasons may be) after they specifically asked you nicely not to use the character?

In over 2 years, this is the Wrongest thing I've yet read.

hrm.. masterful troll?

joe b.

 

[Oni]

For a homebrew game where the only people that are ever going to encounter it are those that are setting around my kitchen table, I wouldn't really give a second thought to using an old PC as an NPC (unless someone had asked me not to in which case it takes so little effort to respect that wish, why not do so). But if I ever decided to publish that world, that is a whole different ballgame, I wouldn't have the right to use someone elses creation as my own. So a PC is definately the property of the player that created him or her, but I think in most cases this is probably a non-issue.

 

[Skade]

Hope ya'll don't think this is a highjacking.

Atma: tell me what you would think of this situation.

Years ago a player comes to me in preperation for a high level game we are about to play that may include evil characters, so long as they have a good reason to be involved in this adventure. My campaign world has a long history of being concerned with Law vs Chaos being much more important than Good vs Evil, and in this particular case even the evil gods were worried about this new Evil. I digress...

So he says, "I want to play a Death Knight." That is all he knows at this point. So he and I collaborate. I come up with the characters name, Guttot Rosehelm. I explain to him the family history, the Rosehelms were already important. I come up with how his character turned from being a Hand (In game name for 2E paladins) to become a Death Knight. He comes up with the new god that he serves. He actually does a lot of work on this god, and gives me the info, telling me that I can use it all I like. The stats and mechanics are him.

Years pass. Guttot now an NPC (with his express permission) has undergone some changes, retrofit to match the changes to his god (again with permission). Mechanically he is no longer similar at all, being something very much unlike a Death Knight. This former player of mine has read my drafts of a novel and was pleased the character was used.

Now, he and I are not speaking. Should I remove him from my work? The name is "special" to me, and was actually one of my contributions to the character.

 

[Oaken25]

No Atma I wasn't talking about you swearing with Damn, I dont consider Damn a swear word, I was talking about Reapersaurus's use of the F word, and him calling me a troll. I didn't think I was trolling, I thought it was a serious question.

And I'm not sure where every one got that I was going to publish any of the PC's story. I was only talking about using it in future games if need be, say like they visit the city a old PC built, and said PC might show up as part of the story. I never said any thing about publishing people's old PC's. Then yes I could see why you would need permission from the Player of the PC.

 

[Atma]

Well first, once more I'm not a lawyer, so don't construe this as legal advice.

I'm going to assume that you mean "not speaking" because of an argument of some nature and not just because you've drifted apart.

That's a very tricky one because it involves the joint creation of intellectual property, IE the character. Generally speaking, if you intend to do any publishing (or even think there's a possibility of it happening in the future) that potentially involves what could be construed as intellectual property of another person, you should always get them to sign a waiver that says they understand that it's your property.

In terms of the God, "You can use it all you want" (if those are the words he used) could be construed as verbal permission to use his intellectual property on a royalty-free basis at any point you desire.

I would say that if this work we're published, you'd have a gentleman's obligation to at least pay the person a minor royalty if the character's past (where the player was playing him) was a reasonable part of the story. If the character's history was left out, and you essentially just re-created a NPC with the same name, then I'd say you don't.

Should you remove him from your work? I'd say no. His attitude now doesn't change his consent from an earlier date.

 

[Skade]

oaken25: I understood what you meant, I was just commiserating with you by explaining my similar experience.

Atma: Thanks for the advice, that was pretty much the conclusion I came to. The argument was not with the player actually, but when the person I argued with told him he had to chose which of us he would remain friends with, he did not choose me. It was all rather inane.

 

[Oaken25]

Aye Skade.

Well here's another question, maybe to keep this topic going.

Who out there that DM's, reuses PC's without PC's knowing about it? Or even uses old PC's if the PC's have allowed the DM to reuse them. Be honest also.