Who "Owns" Old PC's?

[Wolv0rine]

So lets say a player creates a PC that is an important part of the fabric of your world. Several of you seem to feel entitled to that character.

Now lets say that a player creates a PC in which your world is intrinsic to that character. What would you say if they went to do other things with that character and used your world regardless of your wishes because it was integral to the character? How would you feel about that?

Well, just as the Character is the property of the Player, so the Campaign World is the property of the DM, the knife cuts both ways equally. Now of course, ideally, everything is pleasant between the two and no problems occur that would cause either to want to have an arguement about the issue.
And really, if there's no chance of publication in any sense then the issue is pretty unimportant (save for any personal ideosyncracies an individual may or may not have) anyway. But, being the sort of person I am, I try to always be aware that at some tenebrous point down the line, there is always a chance someone may want to publish something based off of something I was involved in. And I try to cover my bets where anything I feel territorial about is concerned for just such contingencies.

Now take this fun situation as an example of how this thread can get even hairier. A Campaign World, co-created originally, but never DM'ed by anyone (and in truth, never even finished). Multiple aspects of the world, it's NPCs, et al, re-tooled various times, with various amounts of each being given more or less involvement from one or the other creator each retooling. The issue of possible publication at some point in time being known by both parties fromthe get-go (we always wanted to, someday, if it ever got done). Now there is/was a sticky situation.

(For anyone curious, it's a solo effort on my part now, with a nearly complete re-creation. But I'll still get his permission for any of his 'pet inclusions' I want to use, including the world name, which was also co-created. I'll probably offer him a piece of the profits too, just because it never would have even begun without him. But that's my solution)

 

[Mercule]

I'm personally one of those people very clingy about PCs, after seeing so many of them wussified into passive creatures and hearing "That's not how I would have played <x>" arguments. It's one thing if the DM clearly states his intentions beforehand, but the important thing to remember is that assuming players understand isn't good enough.

This is why I don't usually trot out a retired character as an NPC. I'm very much of the opinion that no one can RP a character the way the original player did -- no matter how good the player/DM is.

 

[Mercule]

So lets say a player creates a PC that is an important part of the fabric of your world. Several of you seem to feel entitled to that character.

Now lets say that a player creates a PC in which your world is intrinsic to that character. What would you say if they went to do other things with that character and used your world regardless of your wishes because it was integral to the character? How would you feel about that?

Actually, I feel entitled to the commitment of that character to my campaign world. If I write the character into my immutable history, and the player takes the character elsewhere, I feel violated. In a way, it's like the player has cheated on me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other things". If you mean taking the character to another setting (by whatever means he wants to write it in), I tend to frown on it, but I understand if the character wasn't "complete" (most characters really do have a finishing point that makes any further playing anticlimatic).

If you mean a novel, I would be rather distressed. I honestly think the setting has priority over the character in this regard, to an extent. Although I'd be willing to mention PC historical figures in passing in a novel, I would not write a story with the PC(s) as the main characters without the permission of the player(s). That would be more than rude.

This gets back to what I said before about the character never being played unless both the player and the DM are there. The character never ceases to be a PC, but it never ceases to be a part of the DM's setting.

 

[jdavis]

My PC, my creation, my control over what happens, that is the end of it, if I say no then no it is, the character is mine, I made him, he's not yours to play (PC or NPC, it makes no difference). To me playing him as a NPC would be the exact thing as you taking somebody else's character to another game to play as your PC, it's just wrong. I put a lot of time into my PC's and I don't want them abused after they have died or retired. Now name dropping of a old PC is just fine but actually running a old PC as a NPC isn't. If they say no then no it is. It would be different if it was stated at the start of the game that the PC would become part of the world setting, but then I wouldn't put all that much into the PC, If he's not mine then why would I care about him at all. I get into my characters and they all belong to me, I put part of me into them, using my character without my permission would be a slap in the face to me, it would be stealing and I would take it very personal. I don't care if it is for publishing or just to flesh out your world, it was mine and you took it. Now if we set down and talked about it then I might say ok, but I would want to know why and what you had planned. If I said no then that would be the end of it. Using my PC without permission would be the same as using my car without permission to me. I have given permission on several characters before it's not a big deal but if I say no, not this character then I mean no and that is always the end of it. Truthfully it doesn't come up much and when it does it is normally just name dropping and not actually use as a NPC.

On a side note I actually bought a PC from somebody before, I paid them cash for it and they agreed never to use it again anywhere. I wanted him to flesh out a campaign and the guy said "give me $5". We haggled for a while over who would do what and how the character would be used. In the end I bought the character (I actually got the character, 2 henchmen, a fully fleshed out inteligent magical sword and a full written history). That was a long time ago.

 

[Mercule]

My PC, my creation, my control over what happens, that is the end of it, if I say no then no it is,

I hope there is _some_ qualification to this. I'd not be very happy (as player or DM) if I was in a game where the DM said "The orc hits you for 5 damage," and the player said, "I don't think so."

I don't think this is what you're talking about, but it's always good to know.

the character is mine, I made him, he's not yours to play (PC or NPC, it makes no difference). To me playing him as a NPC would be the exact thing as you taking somebody else's character to another game to play as your PC, it's just wrong. I put a lot of time into my PC's and I don't want them abused after they have died or retired. Now name dropping of a old PC is just fine but actually running a old PC as a NPC isn't. If they say no then no it is. It would be different if it was stated at the start of the game that the PC would become part of the world setting, but then I wouldn't put all that much into the PC, If he's not mine then why would I care about him at all.

Up until this last bit, I can agree with you almost 100%.

Honestly, I'd have just the opposite reaction. If the DM doesn't have the decency to incorporate my character in a meaningful way in his campaign world, why should I bother. It's just a beer and pretzels game. On the other hand, if my character has the chance to become a real, meaningful figure in the game world then I'm going to put a lot more effort into it.

Basically, if the DM is willing to step up to the task, so am I. If he isn't, then neither am I. I refuse to roll a boulder up hill.

If you mean that the DM has stated that the character will become entirely his and you lose all control over it, then I can definitely see your point. See my previous post about perpetual PCdom.

It's all about incentive. The player needs to feel like he is doing something more than contributing to the DM's pet project. The DM needs the incentive to make his world available as a living, growing entity.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Re: hmm

Say they build a city in the campaign world and the game ends, then if that's the case then why game? The city would have to disappear cause the DM has no right to the character? Then why even game in some one's campaign world, nothing would ever get done, cause the DM has no access to PC's after the game ends?

When I left an ongoing campaign, I simply wrote up a short synopsis of the "ending" of my currently active characters. Nothing that they had done 'disapeared' from the game, in fact one left a lasting momento for a close companion. The characters themselves, however, either died or left the campaign setting, or took on a NPC status of my design.

I'm a writer, and often my characters reflect long thought out story ideas, playtested as it were. I strongly defend my IP and certainly wouldn't want a former DM deciding on a new direction for my work.

Write the character out of the story with feedback from the player. Its not hard. The character still exists in memories and evidence of deeds done, but the dm should not make any changes to his or her story.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Ysgarran]

You know, it has never been an issue for me. When a character leaves a campaign we talk about what to do with the PC. The PC has a pretty large number of options, a heroic end, becoming a hermit, continuing on as an active NPC under DM control. I do what the player wants for closure for the PC.

One thing that I wouldn't allow is for the character to go *Poof* and disappear. Continuity is important to me and my fellow players. Breaking that continuity is not something I would do regardless of what the player wanted.

As mentioned by others, much depends on the campaign.

Ysgarran.

So what do you all think? After a game ends does the DM have the right to reuse old PC's and turn them into NPC's, or should they all PC's just be left out of the game world and ignored?

 

[Desdichado]

No offense to anyone out there, but this seems like one of the silliest problems I've heard of in a while. Especially as you say this is only a "casual" game in the Realms: if the guy doesn't want to to reuse his character, you say OK, then advise him to seek professional help. Characters don't "belong" to anyone, especially in that kind of game. If you were going to publish novels, maybe you'd at least want to straighten something out up front, but otherwise I fail to see what kind of relevence it has one way or another. Legally, he can't possibly sue you for using his character in a game, even if he could (and I don't see exactly how) prove beyond any doubt that the intellectual property was his.

The only issue that has any relevence at all, as near as I can tell, is if this guy is your friend, do you want to risk alienating him over something so trivial.

 

[Breakdaddy]

Re: Re: Who "Owns" Old PC's?

Are you F-ing KIDDING me?!

Does the DM have the "right"??!

I can't believe I'm hearing this - either this is a masterful troll, or this board is SO DM-biased that they've lost it.

Listen up : a PC belongs to the player.
Straight out.

The PC is ALL the player has in the game.
That's it -he doesn't control anything else - everything is at the whim and whimsy of the DM, and now you see no problem with going against a player's wishes (whatever those personal reasons may be) after they specifically asked you nicely not to use the character?

In over 2 years, this is the Wrongest thing I've yet read.

Hey Reap, you can borrow my kid's ritalin if that will help, buddy.
Seriously though, If reaper gets this bent outta shape over this then you can imagine how the original "owner" of the PC must feel. You should probably respect his wishes and leave the PC out.

 

[Ysgarran]

Re: Re: Who "Owns" Old PC's?

Listen up : a PC belongs to the player.
Straight out.

The PC is ALL the player has in the game.

No! Not Black Leaf! I'm not going to die!