Who "Owns" Old PC's?

[Celebrim]

Lisa: Probably the first person who said, "I'm not drawing these animals on the walls of the cave jut to have fun, I'm doing it to create art." provoked much the same response. Roleplaying is interesting in that the elements that make it up: extemporaneous drama and comedy, writing, story telling, illustration, and so forth are virtually unchallenged as art. If someone challenges that illustration and extremporaneous comedy is not art - we generally see them as pretensious artsy fartsy types that believe that art does not belong to the masses. The position is like arguing that Chopin is art, but a group of musician around a camp fire singing songs is not art, and a group of musicians in a bar making extemporaneous melodies isn't art either.

When we combine these elements of story telling, illustration, acting and so forth and use them to entertain each other, it is interesting that not only is it 'just a game', but those that would suggest that they are art are labelled pretentious. I guess your point is that art isn't something that you interact with or create. Or maybe your point is that you don't want to be under any particular pressure to create art for fear of being judged by some standard. Or maybe your point is that role playing is a juvenile activity, and when you role play you are merely slumming or letting your hair down and acting childish. Whatever your point is, perhaps you should express it in a way that is a little more considerate of the opinions of others.

For my part, I find roleplaying entertaining precisely because it is art. Role playing is to me, a grand affectation which a group of friends do for thier mutual amusement. It is a more grown-up play pretend, which hopefully does not divorse itself from the childish but wholesome goal of fun. And I personally think it likely that the first play which was ever put on by man, was not on a stage written by some author, but was a group of young and young heart people playing dress up and telling a story. If it differs from the affectation of modern art, it is only in that it is more natural affectation. Role playing is closer to who we are as people, than the snobbish affectations of the 'art scene' and are more quickly dropped when 'the game' is over.

 

[reiella]

Interesting thread. From a realistic/casual point of view, in my games, I do intend to reuse the PCs as figureheads for future campaigns. Now if one of the players had a problem with that, it isn't difficult to just simply 'write them out'. (On the day of Meepo to War High Command Chief of the Kobold Nation, he was assassinated by a cluster of twig blights, inciting the Kobold Nation to war with the Twig Blights.)

About the only situation I can see it actually mattering would be in publication of some sort, where there's money involved, and that in itself I don't wish to touch (nor do I hold delusions that I'll ever be published ).

In a similiar manner, would you consider it inappropiate for a DM to post a Story Hour if one of the players expressed a disinterest in being 'published'?

 

[Lisa Nadazdy]

IMNSHO, those that go off and proclaim the playing of a game as "art", are plainly full of themselves. Playing RPGs is great fun, and a wonderful hobby, but it's hardly more art than talking in a chat room.

Here's an idea: invite someone you know as a friend to a roleplaying session, and after it's all said and done, ask him/her whether they think you're an artist.

If someone with no invested interest considers what you do as "art", then you're an artist. If not, then you're just pretentious, as is anyone who makes self-proclimations of what they do is "art".

 

[Darkness]

Here's an idea: invite someone you know as a friend to a roleplaying session, and after it's all said and done, ask him/her whether they think you're an artist.

If someone with no invested interest considers what you do as "art", then you're an artist. If not, then you're just pretentious, as is anyone who makes self-proclimations of what they do is "art".

By that standard, most art of, oh, the last century or three, wouldn't be art.

 

[Kyramus]

hmmm
The player creates a PC in a game that he no longer plays in.

The game/campaign world is the province of the DM. Without the DM there is no game.

The DM has the stats of the character. Decides to use him in future as an NPC.

The Former Player doesn't want the DM to use the character because of whatever wierd notion of property.

Answer. Rule 0.

The DM is right.
If the DM is wrong, refer to Rule 0.

Lastly It is the DM's call to include or not include a character from the history of the world that he has fashioned.

There are so many Drizzt clones and wanabees out there (when the books came out and it was still 2nd ed) and I don't see Salvatore coming out of the wood work complaining about intellectual property.


Again if the former player has a problem with it. That;s his problem. if the DM needs to use said character as an NPC , do so.

Rule 0.

One rule to rule them all.

 

[Sixchan]

IMNSHO, those that go off and proclaim the playing of a game as "art", are plainly full of themselves. Playing RPGs is great fun, and a wonderful hobby, but it's hardly more art than talking in a chat room.

Here's an idea: invite someone you know as a friend to a roleplaying session, and after it's all said and done, ask him/her whether they think you're an artist.

If someone with no invested interest considers what you do as "art", then you're an artist. If not, then you're just pretentious, as is anyone who makes self-proclimations of what they do is "art".

So someone who doesn't particularly care about, say, Music can decide whether or not Music is 'art'? That just seems a little silly to me...

 

[Wolv0rine]

Answer. Rule 0.

The DM is right.
If the DM is wrong, refer to Rule 0.

Nono, Rule 0 has no application in this sort of case, because it's not exactly an in-game situation. By this sort of reasoning, if the DM wants to keep my dice, Rule 0, he gets my dice. If he wants my jacket, Rule 0, I have to give him my jacket. This is just silly. Now granted, my dice or my jacket are a far cry from my character, and the analogy was purposefully overblown to illustrate the point.

If the DM says that those goblins over there have 8 hit dice, that's Rule 0. If he starts trying to Rule 0 things that are not specifically in-game, then he's out of his jurisdiction.

 

[Desdichado]

I dunno, I know a lot of gamers that aspire to have their games be similar to fantasy fiction that they read. Being genre fiction, a lot of folks don't call that art either, but just because you enjoy creating something that's just a little more serious than simply a bunch of buddies sitting around the table doesn't mean anyone needs to label them as pretentious.

 

[Numion]

Nono, Rule 0 has no application in this sort of case, because it's not exactly an in-game situation. By this sort of reasoning, if the DM wants to keep my dice, Rule 0, he gets my dice. If he wants my jacket, Rule 0, I have to give him my jacket. This is just silly. Now granted, my dice or my jacket are a far cry from my character, and the analogy was purposefully overblown to illustrate the point.

But the rulebooks mention turning PCs into NPCs under the DMs control. Thus applying rule 0 is not so far-fetched.

 

[Henry]

Where courtesy ends, litigation begins. Sad, but true.

In my opinion, the player has a right to an original name and concept, but unless it has been copyrighted or trademarked, there is very little one can say or do to prove otherwise.

I do have to ask those who feel that the player's PC is his and his alone: Where do the limits begin and end? The character concept? the background as it applies to the DM's campaign? Related names of family and friends in the PC's backstory? Trying to separate out a willingly shared work of fiction is a maddening proposition, unless a prior agreement has been reached.

In truth, it is totally worthless to get worked up about.

Lisa: I have to add one thing to your comment about "D&D as (non) art." While it does seem a weird thing to say, it's nonetheless true that it fits the definition.

From the American Heritage Dictionary Online:

ART
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
3. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
4. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
5. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

I've removed definitions that directly relate to art as a graphic medium.

When someone creates notes on a campaign world, it's a form of entertainment they are working on, but that entertainmentcan also can be an expression of someone's internal beliefs, consistencies, and feelings. Douglas Niles said once in an interview that the Dark Sun Campaign setting reflected to a small extent his view on environmental preservation - it grew out of his concern for real-world environmental issues, applied to a magical fantasy world.

Tracy and Laura Hickman created Ravenloft as a tribute to Bram Stoker's Dracula, introducing their gamers (and through TSR to D&D gamers as a whole) to the thrill and sensual gothic horror that was captured in Stoker's work, before it was lampooned and mischaracterized by a half-century of movie and bad TV shows.

Many of the elements of creation in D&D campaigns take on elements of art, just from external observation. DM's work and re-work world histories; they alter NPC's and places and events; they alter maps to fit geographic features and changes to their landscapes through player interaction. They in short slave over a product, sometimes for money, and sometimes for the sheer fun of creation of a unique setting that pleases them and their limited audience.

Before it's dismissed out-of-hand as worthwhile as a dime-store novel, one needs to think about how much creative effort is poured into telling stories, sharing ficitonal accounts, and editing for poignancy.

The poet Homer told campfire stories. We teach those stories in prep schools and universities now. It's not as far off as one would think.