Who was right

[Teflon Billy]

Dude! Now I want to head up north just to have the legendary Teflon Billy cut my hair!
Like traditional barber? Shave and a haircut? Not a salon barber right?
What would you charge to do a mohawk?

Well, I have both licenses, and currently teach at a barbering college. But if you made your way up here...the price is free.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Why would the money belong to you rather than the village that was burned? The villagers had stuff "broken" as well.

I must say, your character is really not much of a paladin. Paladins are not "me first" types.

Seriously, if these arguments were coming from a Lawful Evil fighter, I'd be agreeing with him.

And if I was the DM, these arguments would now be coming from a Lawful Evil fighter.

 

[PoeticJustice]

I didn't think I'd participate in this thread for various reasons. Then I saw this...

When cops throw a murdering psychopath in a jail cell for life, that’s punishment. When are party kills such a bad guy, that’s punishment. You are inclined to believe that the punishment carried out by the cops is just and ours is not simply because the cop has a badge and we do not. But justice doesn’t care if you have a badge.

This smacks of low drama which, predictably, doesn't resemble real life in the slightest. Law Enforcement officers don't pass judgement on the accuse. A Judge or Jury of their peers do that, at least in the USA. Are you saying your Paladin has appointed himself Judge and Jury?

 

[subbob]

Courts? What courts? It's "High Fantasy"

First, the court argument is utterly ridiculous. Even then, who's to say which party was "defending themselves"? Sure, YOU call these guys evil - but good is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps you were invading their keep, their stronghold or their land - in that case they were defending themselves against your open hostilities. So they break your shield in the process of defending themselves? Waaah! Want some cheese with that?

Second, **** happens! There's mechanism for things to get broken and, as you found out, it can happen. If you don't want to risk it, don't play with it. What if this happened when your party was fighting some random encounter with someone that had little to no treasure? Would you expect them to "carry a marker" for you until your loss was paid off?

Third, the argument "so and so gave me some money so he agrees with me" is fallacious. Perhaps he did it out of sympathy for your loss. I know if I was in a party where someone suffered a significant material loss, I'd be inclined to give them a little extra. But I would do it because I WANTED to, not because the person DEMANDS it. In fact, if the person tried to use the same logic you are spewing, the only thing "extra" they'd get from me is a simultaneous flight of the middle digit of both hands!

You asked "Who's right?" - well, in my mind it was certainly NOT you.

 

[Sparafucile]

Is that what your Paladin thinks? Because if so, he ought to immediately lose his powers and become a Lawful Neutral Fighter in need of an Atonement and an attitude adjustment.

I do wonder why your Paladin undertook this quest in the first place. Wasn't it out of the goodness of his heart, because he is a loyal and religious person? If so, then he will surely see this loss as an opportunity to grow in holiness through self-sacrifice.

I'd add to this, and say that your Paladin is totally Lawful Neutral.

Part of being Good requires a bit of sacrifice once in a while. You aren't even sacrificing your life, you're sacrificing a friggin' shield. Not only that, it makes enemies easier to hit you, causing you pain, suffering, etc. as you protect others. Isn't that Paladin-like too?

Fate took your shield, dude. You can accept fate like a Hero, and go out to meet danger without it, or you can melt into a puddle of whiny-ass goo and out argue and complain, liek these classic heroes. . .

"Darth Vader, you owe me a hand! I want restitution for my lost lightsaber in the amount of 25,000 credits! Wah!" - Luke Skywalker

"I served the gladitorial pits and fought countless enemies for you guys. You may have trained me, but when you cut me loose, you didn't even give me a sword. I want my cut of your winnings - 25,000 red rubies! And a new sword. Gah!" - Conan

"Aragorn, I became a white wizard and sacrificed my life against the Balrog. I agreed to this quest on the condition that I would get to keep my gnarly wood staff, and I lost it during the fall. I want 25,000 gp worth of pipe weed now! Boo hoo!" - Gandalf

 

[mmadsen]

Are you saying your Paladin has appointed himself Judge and Jury?

That is the role of a Paladin. He rights wrongs. He is judge and jury, at least out in the hinterlands where adventurers roam -- just as any aristocrat is judge and jury on his own land.

 

[mmadsen]

I hope Moff_Tarkin is just playing a role here, because these arguments sound like they should come out of a goblin merchant, not a paladin.

More to the point, there's obviously no one right answer for what is an agreement, implicit in this case, between the members of the adventuring party. Perhaps they should have formal Articles of Agreement, like a pirate crew, spelling out who gets what:

IX. No man to talk of breaking up their way of living, till each had shared one thousand pounds. If in order to this, any man should lose a limb, or become a cripple in their service, he was to have eight hundred dollars, out of the public stock, and for lesser hurts, proportionately.

X. The captain and quartermaster to receive two shares of a prize: the master, boatswain, and gunner, one share and a half, and other officers one and quarter.​

As it stands, Moff_Tarkin's paladin lost a valuable shield in combat. Too bad for him. Then he won his fair share of the plunder. Woo-hoo! His net loss is negligible compared to that lost in many business ventures, let alone compared to losing an arm, leg, eye, or life.

 

[Corsair]

Moff comes across as a weasel and a jerk. ... His DM comes across as a weasel and a jerk.

Seems like they are made for each other.

 

[Klaus]

I had and interesting argument with some of the members of my group. At fist my side of the argument may seem ridiculous, but when you think about it, I am probably right.

There is a group of evil bad guys that the party is fighting. During the final confrontation with this group, one of them sunders my +5 tower shield, a 25,000 gold piece item. After picking my jaw up off the floor I said, “By any civilized law this guy, or his group, owes me 25,000 gold pieces. There isn’t a judge in the land that would rule otherwise. So remember that when we kill these guys, 25,000 of their gold is not theirs but mine.”

From every angle my logic make sense. From the first angle, if someone breaks one of my 25,000 gold piece items, a civilized court would rule that the offender now owes me 25,000 gold. That’s the also the same ruling any court in our real life modern world would make.

And lets look at it from another angle. Lets say one member of the group of bad guys the party is after is a rouge. One night, he sneaks into the Inn the party is staying at and steals the fighter’s +1 flaming sword. When the party finally beats the evil group and loots their bodies and their lair they find a +1 flaming sword, the same one stolen from the fighter in fact. Now would any party thow this in to the “party treasure” pile. Of course not, they would hand it back to the fighter. So, didn’t the guys who sundered my +5 shield effectively steal 25,000 gold from me? When we loot the lair isn’t 25,000 gold of that treasure mine?

I have made my case. Does anyone still agree with the logic of the party? The one that puts more money in their pockets. The one that ignores the fact that I walked out of the “final battle” with worse than I walked in with.

Don't try to block an opponent's attack with anything you cannot afford to have sundered.

*They* didn't ruin your item. *You* put it in hazard's way. Next time go to the Bankers' Guild and get a "Sundering Insurance".

 

[Will]

I'd also point out that unless the opponent has a really cool 'extra sundering' attack, sundering a shield is a pretty limited/daft thing for NPCs to do, which further bolsters me 'DM is being a weasel' comment.

I mean, PCs rarely sunder shields. First of all, it's HARD. Second of all, you've blown a decent attack to make it SOMEWHAT easier to... hit the person. Most PCs I know of would rather simply attack the target; melee folks may simply use less power attack or keep the opponent occupied so the casters can do stuff that armor doesn't help (ranged touch, saves, etc). Third, of course, is the 'don't break stuff you want to sell.'

And, heck, all three are compelling reasons for NPCs not to break PCs' stuff; presumably if they defeat the PCs they want loot to improve THEIR equipment.

Meh. I hate NPCs that don't behave reasonably.