D&D 5E Who wrote these CRs?

[Minigiant]

Again people ate missing the point.

CR isn't meaningless. CR tells you who has a chance of one-shotting a PC and who has good chance of seriously hurting a PC or draining their resources somehow.

A CR 21 solar might be easy to kill but it can one-shot you party's level 20 wizard on turn 1. Fight start. Slaying Longbow. Wizard SoD.

A CR 5 drow elite can also slice up your party wizard. Sure it's easy to kill but it can carve your mage or rogue in 3 easy if you don't kill them fast.

A CR 13 vampire may be easy to KO but it drains maximum HP on a bite. This can be very bad if not the lest fight of the day.

CR is mostly a "If it hits, can it wreck you" meter. If CR > Level, it can wreck you on hit. CR < Level, it won't wreck you on hit.

 

[Maxperson]

Again people ate missing the point.

CR isn't meaningless. CR tells you who has a chance of one-shotting a PC and who has good chance of seriously hurting a PC or draining their resources somehow.

A CR 21 solar might be easy to kill but it can one-shot you party's level 20 wizard on turn 1. Fight start. Slaying Longbow. Wizard SoD.

A CR 5 drow elite can also slice up your party wizard. Sure it's easy to kill but it can carve your mage or rogue in 3 easy if you don't kill them fast.

A CR 13 vampire may be easy to KO but it drains maximum HP on a bite. This can be very bad if not the lest fight of the day.

CR is mostly a "If it hits, can it wreck you" meter. If CR > Level, it can wreck you on hit. CR < Level, it won't wreck you on hit.

That's fine if that's how you want to see it, but that's not how it is written. It is written so that a creature with a CR equal to 4 PCs of the same level is a worthy challenge, not an "If I get lucky I can use up some of your resources." encounter.

 

[MostlyDm]

They can't be a threat. Low level creatures are intended to be a threat in great numbers. A level 10 PC would waste 6 kobolds.



Because it makes encounters worthless. I like for there to be a challenge in the game. If 10th level PCs can run around fighting and defeating anything in the book, the game ends before 10th level for me. At that point, there's no point in combat anymore, and while I love non-combat more than combat, combat is still a critical part of the game.

You are still engaging in too much hyperbole; it's actively hampering the discussion.

Even if we assume it's possible for a level 10 party to defeat any single monster in the book, that doesn't mean *any* of the following:

1) the party will not be threatened by anything.

2) higher CR monsters aren't more threatening in a meaningful way.

3) players gain nothing from levels

The reverse of those are actually still true. Add environmental hazards or minions or difficult tactics to your high level monster and the party will sweat. Level 10 parties are far from invincible. High CR monsters are much more threatening.

Give the Solar a few allies. Give the dragon a heavy fog that shrouds its approach. Let the vampire slip into their midst and try to get one of them alone.

The game is still challenging, even if it's not usually the best approach to just toss a high CR monster to the party by itself and expect it to do the job of being threatening for you.

 

[MostlyDm]

Heck... I don't generally run modules, but look at how some of the published adventures go. The adult white dragon in RoT has toads and trolls and kobolds supporting it, some of which can fight the party at the same time. It's also got some brutal terrain control.

 

[Minigiant]

That's fine if that's how you want to see it, but that's not how it is written. It is written so that a creature with a CR equal to 4 PCs of the same level is a worthy challenge, not an "If I get lucky I can use up some of your resources." encounter.

That's actually the definition.
"You will win. No one will probably die. You will most likely spend precious resources."
That is the definition of a medium encounter in the rules.

The game runs by grinding out resources until you after too few to take the next fight without casualties.

 

[Maxperson]

Even if we assume it's possible for a level 10 party to defeat any single monster in the book, that doesn't mean *any* of the following:

1) the party will not be threatened by anything.

2) higher CR monsters aren't more threatening in a meaningful way.

3) players gain nothing from levels

The reverse of those are actually still true. Add environmental hazards or minions or difficult tactics to your high level monster and the party will sweat. Level 10 parties are far from invincible. High CR monsters are much more threatening.

Give the Solar a few allies. Give the dragon a heavy fog that shrouds its approach. Let the vampire slip into their midst and try to get one of them alone.

The game is still challenging, even if it's not usually the best approach to just toss a high CR monster to the party by itself and expect it to do the job of being threatening for you.

What you are suggesting here amounts to, "Since the current CR system is broken, just amp up the CR until the encounter is a proper challenge." That's not the CR system working, it's me fixing the broken CR system.

As it is written in the CR rules, a 4 level four PCs should have a worthy challenging fight from a CR 4 creature with no other hazards or buddies. It doesn't work that way. Therefore, CR is broken.

This is the way it should work if CR wasn't broken. CR -1 to +1 is a challenge that might knock a PC out, maybe. CR +2 to +3 is a tough fight that should knock PCs out and might kill a PC, maybe. CR +4 to +5 should kill PCs even if they win, but they can win if they do very well. CR +6 and higher should wipe the party unless they run. CR -2 to -3 should be an easy fight that uses little resources. CR -4 to -19 should be a cake walk that isn't do be bothered with unless the DM cranks up the numbers to make them a challenge.

That's a working CR system. It allows for monsters to continue to be used past their CR time by cranking up numbers, while still allowing monsters that are just plain beyond the PCs to exist in the world once they hit 7th-10th level.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

What you are suggesting here amounts to, "Since the current CR system is broken, just amp up the CR until the encounter is a proper challenge." That's not the CR system working, it's me fixing the broken CR system.

No, it is the CR system working but having a goal other than your goal as it's assumed goal, and you using the CR system to reach your goal instead - you are just calling it "broken" and you "fixing it" because you refuse to see the difference between a thing that works for it's intended function that you don't like and a thing that's intended function you do like.

As it is written in the CR rules, a 4 level four PCs should have a worthy challenging fight from a CR 4 creature with no other hazards or buddies. It doesn't work that way. Therefore, CR is broken.

Language is much less precise than you are insisting it is. So it does work that way for the given definition of "worthy challenge". Therefor, CR works as intended.

This is the way it should work if CR wasn't broken.

No. That is how CR would work if it's intended goal was the goal you want to be the intended goal.

 

[MostlyDm]

I'm away from book. Could someone do me a favor?

How does the XP reward of a CR 10 monster stack up against the encounter budget for 4 level 10 characters?

It's no more than a medium, right? Wherein there's no expectation of a PC being downed.

 

[SuperZero]

CR isn't meaningless. CR tells you who has a chance of one-shotting a PC and who has good chance of seriously hurting a PC or draining their resources somehow.

...

CR is mostly a "If it hits, can it wreck you" meter. If CR > Level, it can wreck you on hit. CR < Level, it won't wreck you on hit.

That doesn't always work, though. The bugbear can KO any 1st-level PC with an average damage roll if it has surprise--assuming it doesn't kill them outright. I spotted that one easily, since 1st-level PC HP is simple to predict. I think it's less true at higher levels.. (Also less of a problem, since they can fix it.)

I'm away from book. Could someone do me a favor?

How does the XP reward of a CR 10 monster stack up against the encounter budget for 4 level 10 characters?

It's no more than a medium, right? Wherein there's no expectation of a PC being downed.

Medium.
"A medium encounter usually has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties. One or more of them might need to use healing resources."

 

[MostlyDm]

That doesn't always work, though. The bugbear can KO any 1st-level PC with an average damage roll if it has surprise--assuming it doesn't kill them outright. I spotted that one easily, since 1st-level PC HP is simple to predict. I think it's less true at higher levels.. (Also less of a problem, since they can fix it.)






Medium.
"A medium encounter usually has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties. One or more of them might need to use healing resources."

Thanks!

Yeah. "Might need to use healing resources" doesn't sound like getting KOed. I mean, healing is inefficient so if you play whack a mole then maybe. But that's not a basic/introductory player attitude.

Also low levels aren't a great example for most of this stuff... If I remember right, DMG doesn't even recommend putting average L1 PCs against CR1 monsters much.