D&D 5E Why a New D&D Video Game Should Be 16bit/2D

[Parmandur]

Feel free to list these D&D style fantasy RPG "Retro 2D games" that have sold better than Wasteland 2 or Pillars of Eternity. Be sure to include links to verifiable sales data. Please note, I don't consider Stardew Valley a D&D style fantasy RPG by any stretch of the imagination; I'd find it very difficult to believe if anyone else attempts to sincerely claim so either.



Please explain how one could engage in simultaneous overland wilderness exploration ("hex-crawl") navigating a labyrinthine environment ("dungeon-crawl") "Rogueloke"???... (my educated guess is you mean "roguelike" here). I find your posts somewhat difficult to comprehend (and I don't just mean the typos).

Please do more than making an overwhelming amount of your response just quoting my previous post in full.



Reminds me of the graphics of the early 5 Star General series; Panzer General, Allied General, (especially) Fantasy General, etc...

Per Steamspy, Terraria has ~8.5 million sold, as opposed to Pillars of Eternity's 1 million. Not sure why Stardew Valley doesn't qualify, as that has sold way more than Pillars of Eternity at 2.5 million copies on Steam.

 

[Zardnaar]

Per Steamspy, Terraria has ~8.5 million sold, as opposed to Pillars of Eternity's 1 million. Not sure why Stardew Valley doesn't qualify, as that has sold way more than Pillars of Eternity at 2.5 million copies on Steam.

Any idea on Xbox and PS4 of Stardew Valley

 

[ValamirCleaver]

I still have the panzer general games and peoples general.

I still have the CD-ROMs for Panzer General, Allied General, Fantasy General, Star General, Pacific General, Panzer General II, People's General, Panzer General 3D Assault & Panzer General III: Scorched Earth from when I purchased them when they were originally released. I still play scenarios from most of these games in Open General despite the fact that I own the complete Panzer Corps series.

I used Stardew Valley as an example that a retro game can be a hit with fans, critics and sales.

In what way, shape or fashion is Stardew Valley a D&D style fantasy RPG? Which D&D style fantasy RPG "Retro 2D games" have sold better than Wasteland 2 or Pillars of Eternity?

To have a hit franchise you have to start somewhere and since they don't have an EA or Bioware budget or an established franchise to build on.

Both InXile & Obsidian have released multiple RPGs (Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny) that can easily be described as "hit with fans, critics and sales" without coming close to spending an "EA or Bioware" sized "budget". Both InXile & Obsidian have games in development. Torment: Tides of Numenera is going top be released in less than 6 weeks. InXile is currently developing the Bard's Tale 4 & Wasteland 3. None of these games have or are going to have early 90s, 16-bit style graphics or are or going to be RPG Maker, JRPG style games. The sequel to Pillars of Eternity is going be officially announced soon.

If both InXile & Obsidian can release (and are in the process of currently developing) RPGs with modern graphics without spending EA or Bioware sized budgets why can't (a major international corporation) Hasbro? If Hasbro was smart they would have their new WotC software division license one of InXile's or Obsidian's game engines or (even better so they don't screw it up) contract (not be miserly & just offer a license to the IP) InXile and/or Obsidian to develop a D&D RPG. How difficult do you think it would be to reskin the Pillars of Eternity/Tyranny or Wasteland 2 game engines for D&D games?! I would even be extremely happy with Obsidian being hired to develop a game that just updated the Electron engine especially if it was compatible with pre-existing NWN1/2 assets (models, textures, HAKs, etc...).

I would like to think that any of my suggestions would be a lot less expensive than "an EA or Bioware budget". I also don't want yet another E-Tools/Virtual Table Beta & DDI/Mornigstar/Sword Coast Legends type fiasco...


Something just crossed my mind, do you have more than one account or are you & Parmandur operating as part of a hive mind?

 

[ValamirCleaver]

Per Steamspy, Terraria has ~8.5 million sold, as opposed to Pillars of Eternity's 1 million. Not sure why Stardew Valley doesn't qualify, as that has sold way more than Pillars of Eternity at 2.5 million copies on Steam.

In what specific ways are Terraria or Stardew Valley D&D style fantasy RPGs? Where are the hex-crawling, dungeon-crawling, roguelike, etc.. elements in Terraria or Stardew Valley? For what specific reasons would someone who wants to play a D&D style fantasy RPG (like the Infinity Engine games or NWN1/2) even consider playing Terraria or Stardew Valley?...

 

[Zardnaar]

In what specific ways are Terraria or Stardew Valley D&D style fantasy RPGs? Where are the hex-crawling, dungeon-crawling, roguelike, etc.. elements in Terraria or Stardew Valley? For what specific reasons would someone who wants to play a D&D style fantasy RPG (like the Infinity Engine games or NWN1/2) even consider playing Terraria or Stardew Valley?...

We are not claiming they are. No idea what terraria is.

I would also be happy with a Pullars of Eternity type D&D game.

The reason Hasbro can't do that is because they are a toy company and keep trying to do things on the cheap. Or aiming to high on the cheap.

If you are going to be cheap aim for cheap.

Pillars of Eternity was also published by Paradox Interactive another smaller software company with a good reputation due to Crusader Kings/Europa Unversalis/Hearts of Iron series.

They should aim for something like Pillars if they can't handle that 2D it. I would rather have quality over graphics and should get around to playing PoE as I own it.

 

[ValamirCleaver]

We are not claiming they are.

Then why are both of you using them as examples in reference to a new D&D video game?

No idea what terraria is.

You keep responding to my posts that were made directly to Parmandur who mentioned Terraria. You should read more carefully instead of automatically assuming that the post is directly addressed to you. There are reasons why I quote a specific portion of a previous post followed by my specific response to that specific portion.

The reason Hasbro can't do that is because they are a toy company

Who for some strange reason just established a software division at WotC...

and keep trying to do things on the cheap. Or aiming to high on the cheap.

And we've all seen multiple times in the past how well that has worked for them...

If you are going to be cheap aim for cheap.

And risk putting off potential customers by making obvious you're being cheap despite the fact that you're major, multi-million dollar, international corporation?... I wonder what's worse, that or licensing out you IP to a publisher that tries to do it on the cheap? What have the past results been like?...

Pillars of Eternity was also published by Paradox Interactive another smaller software company with a good reputation due to Crusader Kings/Europa Unversalis/Hearts of Iron series.

Obsidian funded Pillars of Eternity via Kickstarter. The Kickstarter campaign started on September 14, 2012. It made it's initial funding & first stretch goal in less than 2 days. When the funding campaigned closed on October 16, 2012 over $4.1 million had been raised. It wasn't announced that Paradox would be publishing the game until March 2014 and that was specifically to handle the marketing and distribution of the game, not any part of the funding of the development costs. There are specific reasons why I am linking specific webpages to this specific part of your response. You might want to follow & read them before spitting out a knee-jerk response. If you'd like a condensed summation try reading the Wikipedia article under the Development heading. What it seems to me is what you may have assumed regarding Pillars of Eternity appears to me to be incorrect in my personal opinion.

They should aim for something like Pillars

That sounds sort of familiar for some reason. Did someone post something similar rather recently?...

"If Hasbro was smart they would have their new WotC software division license one of InXile's or Obsidian's game engines or (even better so they don't screw it up) contract (not be miserly & just offer a license to the IP) InXile and/or Obsidian to develop a D&D RPG. How difficult do you think it would be to reskin the Pillars of Eternity/Tyranny or Wasteland 2 game engines for D&D games?!"

if they can't handle that 2D it.

How would that be any different than what Beamdog has done with the Enhanced Editions of BG1, BG2, Siege of Dragonspear of Icewind Dale?...

I would rather have quality over graphics

I'd even be willing to settle for the Spiderweb guy. He may be a one man outfit, but he obviously takes pride in his work. He's been releasing competent tile-based & isometric Infinity Engine clone games for almost 25 years. He's also based in Seattle so he's local to WotC.

should get around to playing PoE as I own it.

Yes, you should. Both expansions have been released and there's a nice selection of mods on the Nexus.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then why are both of you using them as examples in reference to a new D&D video game?


You keep responding to my posts that were made directly to Parmandur who mentioned Terraria. You should read more carefully instead of automatically assuming that the post is directly addressed to you. There are reasons why I quote a specific portion of a previous post followed by my specific response to that specific portion.


Who for some strange reason just established a software division at WotC...


And we've all seen multiple times in the past how well that has worked for them...


And risk putting off potential customers by making obvious you're being cheap despite the fact that you're major, multi-million dollar, international corporation?... I wonder what's worse, that or licensing out you IP to a publisher that tries to do it on the cheap? What have the past results been like?...


Obsidian funded Pillars of Eternity via Kickstarter. The Kickstarter campaign started on September 14, 2012. It made it's initial funding & first stretch goal in less than 2 days. When the funding campaigned closed on October 16, 2012 over $4.1 million had been raised. It wasn't announced that Paradox would be publishing the game until March 2014 and that was specifically to handle the marketing and distribution of the game, not any part of the funding of the development costs. There are specific reasons why I am linking specific webpages to this specific part of your response. You might want to follow & read them before spitting out a knee-jerk response. If you'd like a condensed summation try reading the Wikipedia article under the Development heading. What it seems to me is what you may have assumed regarding Pillars of Eternity appears to me to be incorrect in my personal opinion.


That sounds sort of familiar for some reason. Did someone post something similar rather recently?...

"If Hasbro was smart they would have their new WotC software division license one of InXile's or Obsidian's game engines or (even better so they don't screw it up) contract (not be miserly & just offer a license to the IP) InXile and/or Obsidian to develop a D&D RPG. How difficult do you think it would be to reskin the Pillars of Eternity/Tyranny or Wasteland 2 game engines for D&D games?!"


How would that be any different than what Beamdog has done with the Enhanced Editions of BG1, BG2, Siege of Dragonspear of Icewind Dale?...


I'd even be willing to settle for the Spiderweb guy. He may be a one man outfit, but he obviously takes pride in his work. He's been releasing competent tile-based & isometric Infinity Engine clone games for almost 25 years. He's also based in Seattle so he's local to WotC.


Yes, you should. Both expansions have been released and there's a nice selection of mods on the Nexus.

The Stardew Valley example is proof you can sell a modern "16 bit" (note the quotations) game that gets high reviews and sells a couple of million copies (more than PoE?).

It was more aimed at the posters who claimed games like that can't sell. Well they can.

IDK if WoTC will throw 4 million at a D&D game and I don't think they will kickstarter anything. PoE was hyped as a spiritual successor to Torment or BG. And Obsidian also had a track record of making some good RPGs like KotoRE 2 (not as good as KoToR 1 obviously,).

I think a few Pardox fans might have tried out PoE as well as they have Paradox sales on Steam and they were running banners over on the CKII, EUIV forums and they helped plug it. Pdox has a fanatical fanbase.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Betting the app in development is a fully WOTC DM/Player aid app. They know there's a market for it, there's been a few tools already made that have tried to either skirt around copy right or have approached WOTC.

They tried working with a group on something similar in 2014, but it was canned. (I'm sure there's other stuff, but for now: http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/12/02/physical.media.gaming.company.and.rights.holder.slow.to.adopt.digital/) It'd be relatively cheap to create their own in-house version now, with them having total control and the power to give full support - and of course, retaining 100% of the profits.

Regarding whatever games sold X, therefore we can make X - no really, doesn't work like that. You have to consider the demographics involved, the target audience and the context of your game. (Otherwise you end up with: ''Star Dew sold well. We can make a retro style game and it will well to the D&D demographic. Another game that sold very well is Counter Strike. Therefore I believe we have all the evidence we need to convince the naysayers that a WOTC developed game should be a first person action shooter in glorious 3D with multiplayer support. Those that claim otherwise can just check out the number of copies of Counter Striker sold!'')

What we *can* claim is that Star Dew valley sold well. Why it sold well is open to debate. Would it have sold well with a different graphic style? Perhaps. Or maybe its because the actual gameplay is very enjoyable, for a given demographic. It's up for debate. But none of this is evidence to support the claim that a WOTC developed game should be 2D rather than 3D, because it would sell more/be better - unless, of course, we're simply arguing for our own preference of game and style of game. In which case, hey to each their own!

 

[Parmandur]

In what specific ways are Terraria or Stardew Valley D&D style fantasy RPGs? Where are the hex-crawling, dungeon-crawling, roguelike, etc.. elements in Terraria or Stardew Valley? For what specific reasons would someone who wants to play a D&D style fantasy RPG (like the Infinity Engine games or NWN1/2) even consider playing Terraria or Stardew Valley?...

Both are RPGs...? With the role playing, combat, etc. Both these and Pillars/Wasteland and such are "retro" style, not a hit against either: but it seems odd to suggest there is no market for 2D style games, unlike Infinity retro games, when that doesn't seem to bear out in sales numbers for the respective retro genres. There is room for both of them, but a priori O see no reason a D&D 2D game might not be more successful than another Infinity game, or at least have a higher ROI.

For those who don't know:

Terraria is a 2D sidescrolling Minecraft-style game, with more of a focus on RPG and adventure elements: particularly, exploration and dungeon delving.

Stardew Valley is a Harvest Moon clone, so literally a old school JRPG type game (focused on farming primarily, but it does have combat, and farming is a role too...).

 

[Parmandur]

Betting the app in development is a fully WOTC DM/Player aid app. They know there's a market for it, there's been a few tools already made that have tried to either skirt around copy right or have approached WOTC.

They tried working with a group on something similar in 2014, but it was canned. (I'm sure there's other stuff, but for now: http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/12/02/physical.media.gaming.company.and.rights.holder.slow.to.adopt.digital/) It'd be relatively cheap to create their own in-house version now, with them having total control and the power to give full support - and of course, retaining 100% of the profits.

Regarding whatever games sold X, therefore we can make X - no really, doesn't work like that. You have to consider the demographics involved, the target audience and the context of your game. (Otherwise you end up with: ''Star Dew sold well. We can make a retro style game and it will well to the D&D demographic. Another game that sold very well is Counter Strike. Therefore I believe we have all the evidence we need to convince the naysayers that a WOTC developed game should be a first person action shooter in glorious 3D with multiplayer support. Those that claim otherwise can just check out the number of copies of Counter Striker sold!'')

What we *can* claim is that Star Dew valley sold well. Why it sold well is open to debate. Would it have sold well with a different graphic style? Perhaps. Or maybe its because the actual gameplay is very enjoyable, for a given demographic. It's up for debate. But none of this is evidence to support the claim that a WOTC developed game should be 2D rather than 3D, because it would sell more/be better - unless, of course, we're simply arguing for our own preference of game and style of game. In which case, hey to each their own!

Absolutely right; just seemed odd to assert that games like Stardew Valley or Terraria "don't count" or don't have a market, when clearly they do. I'd be cool with either sort of game, or a grand strategy Civ style or CK2 style game with D&D IP; it's all groovy, baby.