Why a Sorcerer vs a Wizard?

[Vahktang]

Some people like to be able to tactically optimize their spell choices each day. They play Wizards.

Some people hate having to pick spells each day. They play Sorcerers.

-- N

Hear, hear.

More later,

Vahktang

 

[DaveMage]

I wasn't sold on the usefulness of the sorcerer until I played one in Icewind Dale II. While having a wizard is nice due to the perceived spells available flexibility, the extra firepower and the ability to choose what spell you cast each time is a major plus.

A 9th level sorcerer with magic missile and 18 charisma can fire off 40 magic missiles in 8 rounds of combat. (80-200 points of damage with no save). A 9th level wizard that happened to devote half of his slots (6 w/18 Int) to magic missile could only fire off 15 (30-75 damage). Even the wizard that put all of his 1st level slots to magic missile could only do 30 missiles (60-150 damage).

Using the same comparison with fireball:

9th level sorcerer: 8 fireballs of 9d6 (72-432 damage)
9th level wizard: 5 fireballs of 9d6 (30-270 damage)

This combined with the fact that sorcerers do not have to declare what spells they take ahead of time makes them a very attractive class, IMO.

 

[Psion]

I just feel ambigous about the Sorcerer class. What are some good variants?

Guess I should answer this question.

Try the Quintessential Sorcerer. It has some really neat variants. My favorite is the "song of will, song of blood", which lets them trade some spell slots for persistent abilities. These abilities have a really neat flavor and make them seem like being of magic.

There are a number of "touched" and "legacy" templates. Each of these templates is +1 ECL and adds a small selection of special abilities to the sorcerer. Two of the templates (fiend and celestial legacy) need to be toned down, but overall, I think they are a great idea and make the sorcerer very distinctive from the wizard.

Check out these two threads for more info:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65568
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68746

In my own campaign houserules, I have a feat called "sorcerous patron" which allows the sorcerer an extra spell known per level chosen froma specific list, but the character must perform services for a fey or outsider patron. This is similar to an article from a recent dragon that had bloodline feats.


Personally, I really do not like the BoEM II sorcerer, for a few reasons.

I do like the new skill list. However, I don't think that the sorcerer is weak enough that they deserve a higher HD type.

Further, I beleive that they should use the same spell list as wizards.

First, many of the spells monte takes away from sorcerers are the exact sorts of spells that I tended to give hedge wizards and witches that I felt the sorcerer archetype fit exactly; apparently Monte thinks that "blast mage" is a good enough archetype (here I go again with my "core classes must be broad" nit!) Second, I didn't find his argument on why to take haste and similar spells away compelling (and they are all the less compelling in 3.5e). Third, I like the logical correspondance between the spells sorcerers cast and the fact that creatures with innate magical abilities (like dragons, rakshasa, and aranea) have sorcerer levels, and I didn't think it made sense to differentiate them.

 

[Storminator]

I find sorcerers are great for novice players. With a little help in picking out spells, a weak player can play a very effective sorcerer. Not so a wizard.

PS

 

[Heretic Apostate]

Monte's Arcana Unearthed has several wizard/sorceror crossbreeds. Basically, you have the spellbook of a wizard, but you have "spells known (prepared)" and "spell slots per day" as a sorceror.

So, for instance, you might prepare six first-level spells (out of your spellbook of 20 first-level spells), and then only be able to cast 4 first-level spells. You can choose among those that you prepare.

The classes in AU are a bit odd, but this is an intriguing concept.

Then, of course, there's the spell-wielders of the Wheel of Time RPG...

 

[Kichwas]

Wizard = bad
Sorcer = good

Unless a game is themed around the wizard, it's a poor adventuring class. All that prep work to do anything, and all your abilities are wrapped up in a little book that is quite easy to steal or destroy.

A sorcerer will know 40 spells in her career. A wizard gets 2 per level plus their starting package.

The difference there is very small, and in a game with not much down time the wizard will have few options for expanding beyond it - getting maybe a small handfull of new spells.

Another problem in a fast paced game (which is 3E by default given how XP now works) is that even if the wizard finds a spell book with more spells - they have to find time to scribe them all over.

They also need time to make a backup spellbook -or be essentially 'declassed' the first time they fall fully underwater or meet a halfling with sticky fingers (even in the middle of combat, the DC for grabbing away the wizard's pack, clothes, and spellbook is not that high --- if an enemy feels the conflict is protracted and they won't 'kill' the PCs this encounter, they may be well off to send in some rogues or others to disarm the PCs before the next major encounter - the rest of the party, even the fighters, can improvise. The sorcerer just shrugs - especially if she has eschew materials).

Memorization really kills. Unless your intel work is beyond reproach you will probably waste from 1/4 to 3/4 of your slots on improper choices. You can alleviate this by leaving slots open and doing the 15 minute prep thing - but then you hit the time issue again.

A sorcerer has no wasted slots.

A sorcerer can also carry and use wands and scrolls - especially the ones they takes from dead wizards who didn't prepare the right spells that day. She also has a better charisma, so is more able to use magic devices normally outside the range of an arcane caster. And nothing keeps her from getting the scribe scrolls feat - especially now that Spellcasting Prodigy has been cut down, there is no longer a mandatory feat for first level arcane casters.


For an insanely long debate on this issue, see this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86908

 

[d12]

I wasn't sold on the usefulness of the sorcerer until I played one in Icewind Dale II. While having a wizard is nice due to the perceived spells available flexibility, the extra firepower and the ability to choose what spell you cast each time is a major plus.

A 9th level sorcerer with magic missile and 18 charisma can fire off 40 magic missiles in 8 rounds of combat. (80-200 points of damage with no save). A 9th level wizard that happened to devote half of his slots (6 w/18 Int) to magic missile could only fire off 15 (30-75 damage). Even the wizard that put all of his 1st level slots to magic missile could only do 30 missiles (60-150 damage).

Using the same comparison with fireball:

9th level sorcerer: 8 fireballs of 9d6 (72-432 damage)
9th level wizard: 5 fireballs of 9d6 (30-270 damage)

This combined with the fact that sorcerers do not have to declare what spells they take ahead of time makes them a very attractive class, IMO.

The pen and paper game is a whole other ball of wax. The pen and paper version of he wizard can get access to the quicken spell meta-magic feat and doesn't hace to use a full-round action to apply other meta-magic feats. The Arcane Preperation feat takes care of both of the above concerns, but then your sorceror has to use an extra feat just to get Arcane Preperation.

Getting to the comparison in general - l think they are about even in terms of power with the sorceror starting off a little better and the wizard ending up a little better.

I prefer to play wizards because I like changing up my spell list and having just the right spell for the situation. Also, I like getting the more powerful spell levels faster and the free scribe scroll feat (which I take a lot of advantage of). I have a fifth level diviner right now who can cast fireball twice a day, and gets clairaudience/clairvoyance as his specialist spell. If the situation calls for it, I can change one or both of my fireballs to dispel magic (if I have enough time to plan) or cast dispel magic off the scroll I made (if I didn't have enough time to plan). If there was 5th level sorceror in the party he would have more spells per day than me, but not that many and I can always turn to my scroll stash in an emergency.

If you play a sorceror, be sure and take spells that can double up on usefulness. Summon monster can be nice in some situations if your character can speak the language of the monster summoned. Someone on the boards described using their sorceror to summon a thoqua and having it burn holes through doors and other things. So, no need for a Knock spell! Limited Wish can make you really handy since it can duplicate the effects of more than half the spells in the PHB (but you can't get it until 14th level). Polymorph also ranks up there as a versitile spell.

 

[d12]

I wasn't sold on the usefulness of the sorcerer until I played one in Icewind Dale II. While having a wizard is nice due to the perceived spells available flexibility, the extra firepower and the ability to choose what spell you cast each time is a major plus.

A 9th level sorcerer with magic missile and 18 charisma can fire off 40 magic missiles in 8 rounds of combat. (80-200 points of damage with no save). A 9th level wizard that happened to devote half of his slots (6 w/18 Int) to magic missile could only fire off 15 (30-75 damage). Even the wizard that put all of his 1st level slots to magic missile could only do 30 missiles (60-150 damage).

Using the same comparison with fireball:

9th level sorcerer: 8 fireballs of 9d6 (72-432 damage)
9th level wizard: 5 fireballs of 9d6 (30-270 damage)

This combined with the fact that sorcerers do not have to declare what spells they take ahead of time makes them a very attractive class, IMO.

The pen and paper game is a whole other ball of wax. The pen and paper version of he wizard can get access to the quicken spell meta-magic feat and doesn't hace to use a full-round action to apply other meta-magic feats. The Arcane Preperation feat takes care of both of the above concerns, but then your sorceror has to use an extra feat just to get Arcane Preperation.

Getting to the comparison in general - l think they are about even in terms of power with the sorceror starting off a little better and the wizard ending up a little better.

I prefer to play wizards because I like changing up my spell list and having just the right spell for the situation. Also, I like getting the more powerful spell levels faster and the free scribe scroll feat (which I take a lot of advantage of). I have a fifth level diviner right now who can cast fireball twice a day, and gets clairaudience/clairvoyance as his specialist spell. If the situation calls for it, I can change one or both of my fireballs to dispel magic (if I have enough time to plan) or cast dispel magic off the scroll I made (if I didn't have enough time to plan). If there was 5th level sorceror in the party he would have more spells per day than me, but not that many and I can always turn to my scroll stash in an emergency.

If you play a sorceror, be sure and take spells that can double up on usefulness. Summon monster can be nice in some situations if your character can speak the language of the monster summoned. Someone on the boards described using their sorceror to summon a thoqua and having it burn holes through doors and other things. So, no need for a Knock spell! Limited Wish can make you really handy since it can duplicate the effects of more than half the spells in the PHB (but you can't get it until 14th level). Polymorph also ranks up there as a versitile spell.

 

[d12]

oops - double post

 

[d12]

I wasn't sold on the usefulness of the sorcerer until I played one in Icewind Dale II. While having a wizard is nice due to the perceived spells available flexibility, the extra firepower and the ability to choose what spell you cast each time is a major plus.

A 9th level sorcerer with magic missile and 18 charisma can fire off 40 magic missiles in 8 rounds of combat. (80-200 points of damage with no save). A 9th level wizard that happened to devote half of his slots (6 w/18 Int) to magic missile could only fire off 15 (30-75 damage). Even the wizard that put all of his 1st level slots to magic missile could only do 30 missiles (60-150 damage).

Using the same comparison with fireball:

9th level sorcerer: 8 fireballs of 9d6 (72-432 damage)
9th level wizard: 5 fireballs of 9d6 (30-270 damage)

This combined with the fact that sorcerers do not have to declare what spells they take ahead of time makes them a very attractive class, IMO.

The pen and paper game is a whole other ball of wax. The pen and paper version of he wizard can get access to the quicken spell meta-magic feat and doesn't have to use a full-round action to apply other meta-magic feats. The Arcane Preperation feat takes care of both of the above concerns, but then your sorceror has to use an extra feat just to get Arcane Preperation.

Using your example of a 9th level wizard vs a 9th level sorceror - the wizard could cast some nasty fifth level spell and then follow it up with a quickened magic missle while the sorceror casts fireball or a single fourth level spell. The wizard may even be able to repeat the next round: another nasty fifth level spell and a quickened burning hands. The sorceror casts another 4th level spell. In two rounds, the wizard has gotten off 4 spells totalling 12 spell levels while the sorceror has gotten off 2 spells totalling 8 spell levels. Of course, the wizard is going to burn through his spells faster than the sorceror, but he won't burn through all of his spells in one combat and probablyu won't in three combats.


Getting to the comparison in general - l think they are about even in terms of power with the sorceror starting off a little better and the wizard ending up a little better.

I prefer to play wizards because I like changing up my spell list and having just the right spell for the situation. Also, I like getting the more powerful spell levels faster and the free scribe scroll feat (which I take a lot of advantage of). I have a fifth level diviner right now who can cast fireball twice a day, and gets clairaudience/clairvoyance as his specialist spell. If the situation calls for it, I can change one or both of my fireballs to dispel magic (if I have enough time to plan) or cast dispel magic off the scroll I made (if I didn't have enough time to plan). If there was 5th level sorceror in the party he would have more spells per day than me, but not that many and I can always turn to my scroll stash in an emergency.

If you play a sorceror, be sure and take spells that can double up on usefulness. Summon monster can be nice in some situations if your character can speak the language of the monster summoned. Someone on the boards described using their sorceror to summon a thoqua and having it burn holes through doors and other things. So, no need for a Knock spell! Limited Wish can make you really handy since it can duplicate the effects of more than half the spells in the PHB (but you can't get it until 14th level). Polymorph also ranks up there as a versitile spell.