Why all the fiendish love?

[Baby Samurai]

upholding the traditions of DND

…Which in your opinion would be?

 

[Scribble]

Devils are fallen angels, and demons are corrupted elemental. Not incarnated ideas.

Seriously! I haven't even seen any conclusive proof yet that Incarnum will actually be a power source in 4e!

 

[GreatLemur]

As a heroic PC race, it's tacky, crass, lowlife, "in poor taste". I find monster PC races to be non-appropriate for PCs. It's fine as a monster race.

Evil PC races in a "points of light" setting seems lame and trashy to me and forces that repetitive concept of "angst racial hero going against typecasting". Yawn.

Why would you assume that tiefling PCs are going to be evil? They're "monsters" in that they look less human-like than the other non-human PC races. To assume that they, as individuals, are as evil as their fiendish ancestors is kind of ridiculous. And to say the same thing about half-orcs--whose non-human ancestors weren't even supernaturally evil--is even more absurd. These characters are only angsty, evil, or anti-heroes is you want to play them that way. Frankly, I wouldn't.

I find the inclusion of Tieflings to be crude or lowlife.

I can only assume that you have a very unique definition of those terms, or are seeing a lot in the whole tiefling decision that I am not.

 

[KarinsDad]

…Which in your opinion would be?

Changing mechanics as needed to improve the game (like 2E did, like 3E did), but not significantly changing flavor. There was not a lot of flavor changes in 2E and 3E, but there are looking like a lot of flavor changes are occurring for 4E across the landscape.

I personally do not play DND for it's mechanics, I play it because it's the same flavor DND that I have been playing for 30 years. I've played other game systems over the years, but have always come back to DND because those other games do not feel like DND. Characters come and go, campaigns come and go, but a Dwarven Fighter is still a Dwarven Fighter in my mind.

Adding new core classes and races and yanking other ones is leading the entire DND gaming community into a new quasi-DND, but not really, flavor direction. IMO. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Celebrim]

Seeing as how D&D has a history of censorship...

I'm inclined to think you don't know the definition of censorship.

 

[Imp]

Says the guy named Imp.

Hey buddy at least I've got a fly speed, poison, and DR that's useful against mobs of pitchfork-and-torch-wielding peasants. I ain't got nothin' to say to those tiefling poseurs until they can at least upgrade to Rosemary's Baby.

 

[Celebrim]

The way I normally run things (again, all that sort of stuff depends on the exact campaign), demons and devils (and other types of celestials) are incarnated ideals.

Mine two, though I don't have demons, devils, or angels per se because that would be like getting chocolate in with my pickles. I dislike the 'buffet' style cosmology, because it tends to be about as well prepared as well, a buffet. (Though, for a counter-example, see the excellent 'Book of the Righteous'.)

My campaign is expressedly non-monotheistic animism. There are 'fiendish' things, but they are expressedly 'greed spirits' or 'wrath spirits' or other ideas given life. Borrowing Christian or crypto-Christian ideas (most anything expressedly occult) not only makes me uncomfortable, but I consider it bad design in the midst of a supposedly non-Judeo-Christian polytheistic universe. You've got basically a Greek or Finnish pantheon, and you've got fallen angels too.... ok.

The Tiefling would indeed be the classic 'angst' race because one part of them has free will but another part of them does not.

Err...

Thus, if they want to be good or neutral, they have to constantly struggle against that side of them that will always be evil, Always. No matter what atonements they go through, no matter how dee they bury it.

And this is different from being an ordinary human, how?

Every little thing they do is touched by it. If they hit someone in combat, they have to consciously keep from making that extra little twist of the sword so that not only do they cut the guy, they also maim him for life. If they fall in love, they have to work extra hard not to occassionally do something cruel to that person just to see the hurt in their eyes. It's a constant balancing act for them and, frankly, one they can't help but fail at now and again no matter how strong they are. Not happy and not 'kewl'.

All of that is well within the range of 'normal' human behavior. Only, now you've got horns, and kewl powers that make you special.

But most people will just play them for the demonic appearance, and the spell-like abilities...

On this, I fully agree.

Conversely, you can see how that could be an even greater roleplaying challenge to play an asimar, where part of them can't help but be good and merciful. It doesn't have the same ring to it, since a lot of their struggle with the world will be totally internal.

Same difference. This is different than being a normal human, how?

 

[Nifft]

And this is different from being an ordinary human, how?

1/ Cool horns; and
2/ Moral externalization.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Imp]

And this is different from being an ordinary human, how?

All of that is well within the range of 'normal' human behavior. Only, now you've got horns, and kewl powers that make you special.

Ok to be slightly serious for a second here, the whole thematic idea of having an inborn demonic side is to throw the very human morality vs. temptation dynamic into stark relief. The problem with tieflings is that, both mechanically and flavorwise, they do this less well than any other monstrous concept the game has to throw around. Half-orcs and drow at least have societal pressures. Lycanthropes have mechanical effects. Heck, half-elves have more going on (of a different sort).

I don't think this is a fundamental flaw with the idea of an underworld-linked race, though, just something that really hasn't been addressed to this point.

 

[WayneLigon]

And this is different from being an ordinary human, how?

Because a human has free will, and part of a tiefling does not. A human can overcome his baser urges, and tame them to his will. With the way I'd describe a tiefling, they cannot. They'll try, but eventually they'll fail at some part of it.