Why all the ritual hate?

[Puggins]

I agree that it's in the range where it could be okay but I dislike how easily it is competed with by the sledgehammer approach. Sure, if nobody is trained at Thievery and the doors are often thick and steel it will start seeming appealing. But locks that the rogue fails to pick (barring a terrible die roll) aren't likely to be picked by the wizard, either.

I do agree that the ten minute casting time seems a touch excessive. The same effect (not allowing it during combat) could have been achieved with a one minute casting time. I guess they really, really wanted it to take a backseat to thievery. Of course, the fact that the bonuses stack is a very nice effect that a rogue with ritual casting can take advantage of.

Raise Dead is a much better example of a ritual that you can't easily get around using in special circumstances. Or long distance teleport. These seem to be the cases where rituals provide effective alternatives but don;t overshadow character roles. perhaps the discussion should be how to make more rituals like these ones.

I don't think anyone complains when rituals produce truly supernatural effects. I agree with you on this point for certain.

 

[ExploderWizard]

There is no reason to hate rituals. For my own game I just hit the whole ritual system with a hammer until it did what I wanted.

House rules:

1)Ritual prices represent the cost to scribe them into a ritual book. A ritual can only be cast by someone who has mastered it which involves writing it in a personal book. Rituals above 1st level are kind of like ancient passed down knowledge. When a ritual is transcribed from one source to another it dissappears from the original source.

2) As a result of the rarity of higher level rituals, only 1st level rituals are generally available for sale.

3) Most rituals can be performed as a standard action. There are some exceptions.

4) Once a ritual is known it becomes a daily power. With a few exceptions there is no monetary cost to use these powers.


This gives rituals the feel of ancient secret lore and finding one is a great treasure. Diseases remain frightening in a world where perhaps only a handful of people in the world know the ritual to cure them.

The daily restriction helps keep rituals from being spammed as automatic problem solvers while the utility of the short casting time helps make them a useful enough resource to consider using.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What ISNT their schtick? Anything they want to do is covered under once skill. Magic.

That's probably up for debate. In the example above, I said they might be "solvers," that is, characters who remove barriers to progress. They'd probably do it in a few different ways, with a few different Magic-related skills. A skill like Teleportation, or Disintegration, or Riddles, or something. Details sketchy, but whatever helps the party move past an otherwise obstacle is what they might be good at.

What does the caster NOT get to do?

Whatever the other characters do get to do. If the rogue is a "scout," then the divination abilities of Wizards and Clerics are crappy and inaccurate at best. If the fighter is the "sentinel," then spells like Charm Person and illusion rituals are error-prone and unreliable. They might still figure in a pinch (like the rogue picking a lot), but they are clearly not what the character is meant to do.

So utility magic can no longer let players do something conceivably covered by a skill or ability check? Awesome! I may be on board. However, something tells me this is just lip service to fairness, the same crap that justified being a sleep spell on legs for a level or two as a trade off for being able to solve everything with a few spells later.

I dunno why you're skeptical of something that doesn't exist except in theory, but I'll keep it in mind while I tinker.

What's the athletics DC to fly? What's the diplomacy DC to speak with dead?

Oh right... magic gets to do all the special stuff, and all the mundane stuff. Because its magic.

Speak with Dead and Fly might be good "solver" territory, though. They open up new avenues of exploration, which is what a Wizard is probably there to do. Without the Wizard, you'd have to find a new way around that chasm, or a new way to find these secrets. With the Wizard, you get to solve those problems easier, remove these barriers. Meanwhile, the Rogue is probably the best at finding out what the cryptic words of the corpse TRULY mean, and the Fighter is probably the best at intimidating the murderer to surrender.

Right now, the cry baby spell casters get skills, powers AND rituals... but its somehow not enough.

A class ability that doesn't get used might as well not exist.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

There is no reason to hate rituals. For my own game I just hit the whole ritual system with a hammer until it did what I wanted.

House rules:

1)Ritual prices represent the cost to scribe them into a ritual book. A ritual can only be cast by someone who has mastered it which involves writing it in a personal book. Rituals above 1st level are kind of like ancient passed down knowledge. When a ritual is transcribed from one source to another it dissappears from the original source.

2) As a result of the rarity of higher level rituals, only 1st level rituals are generally available for sale.

3) Most rituals can be performed as a standard action. There are some exceptions.

4) Once a ritual is known it becomes a daily power. With a few exceptions there is no monetary cost to use these powers.


This gives rituals the feel of ancient secret lore and finding one is a great treasure. Diseases remain frightening in a world where perhaps only a handful of people in the world know the ritual to cure them.

The daily restriction helps keep rituals from being spammed as automatic problem solvers while the utility of the short casting time helps make them a useful enough resource to consider using.

So what do the 2nd class citizens get to make up for all this freebie utility given to casters?

 

[AllisterH]

As mentioned earlier, perhaps it wuld be better to focus on specific rituals...

Rituals at level 10 I have no problem with...

Level 10
Argent Portal
Aria of Revelation
Chorus of Truth
Conceal Object
Consult Mystic Sages (yes, it's on both)
Detect Object
Eagle's Flight
Enhance Vessel
Imprint Anaxim
Pact of the Iron Ring
Scribe
Song of Restfulness
Tenser's Binding
Trailblaze
Water's Gift

Rituals at level 10 I DO have a problem with....
Chameleon's Cloak - The casting time I don't have a problem with as the duration is for 24 hours. I do have a problem with the fact that once you leave the square you lose the benefits of the ritual...Not worth it IMO. The ritual should allow one to regain the benefits of the cloak once the subject remains in the same square for the same amount of time that they were moving beforehand.

Consult Mystic Sages - My issue with this goes back all the way to 1e.I really think all editions have never really given enough guidelines on using Divination rituals like this to the DM so that the player doesn't feel like he wasted their time yet it doesn't basically take away the mystery of the campaign.

Disorienting Portal - Too expensive for how long it lasts IMO. Even if you're 30th level, spending 400gp every 5 days? As well, the portal only covers 250 feet? Weaksauce...definitely weak.

Secure Shelter - There's nothing inherently WRONG with the ritual...the problem is that like all other editions, by the time you would freely use this ritual, worrying about environmental affects are a non-issue.

 

[SkidAce]

So what do the 2nd class citizens get to make up for all this freebie utility given to casters?

Where did he say it applied only to casters? Anyone can get the feat or feats for rituals.

 

[ExploderWizard]

So what do the 2nd class citizens get to make up for all this freebie utility given to casters?

Who exactly are these 2nd class citizens? Anyone can take the ritual caster feat and all skills are available to all classes as a default.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's probably up for debate. In the example above, I said they might be "solvers," that is, characters who remove barriers to progress. They'd probably do it in a few different ways, with a few different Magic-related skills. A skill like Teleportation, or Disintegration, or Riddles, or something. Details sketchy, but whatever helps the party move past an otherwise obstacle is what they might be good at.

"Solvers" is just a catch phrase for everything else. Magic yet again, enfolds everyone else's domain, as well as supernatural stuff that's off limits to the normal guys. So no deal.

Whatever the other characters do get to do. If the rogue is a "scout," then the divination abilities of Wizards and Clerics are crappy and inaccurate at best. If the fighter is the "sentinel," then spells like Charm Person and illusion rituals are error-prone and unreliable. They might still figure in a pinch (like the rogue picking a lot), but they are clearly not what the character is meant to do.

So we're back to the current state of rituals. You get to be a jack of all trades, master of none. You trade speed and free for versatility.

Speak with Dead and Fly might be good "solver" territory, though. They open up new avenues of exploration, which is what a Wizard is probably there to do.

Fly replaces athletics. No dice... you're taking away from mover territory. Speak with dead replaces information gathering. Again, sorry wizards.

This is the problem with your system... "solver" is just the guy who beats the adventure. What the casters were in earlier editions, where they were simply better than everyone else.

A class ability that doesn't get used might as well not exist.

They do in other people's game. You just want the gravy casters get for free to be as good as everyone else skills and powers. If the ritual caster ONLY got rituals, I might agree. Right now, its a third tier of options, and should be treated as such.

I do have a feat suggestion for those wanting to use rituals in combat...

Hasten Ritual
Tier: Heroic
Pre-requisites: Ritual Caster, Skill Focus

While casting a ritual with a casting time of 10 minutes or less, expend an action point and an encounter power of the ritual's level or less. The ritual's effect occurs at the end of your next turn. Until this time, you may only take a move or minor action. If you are damaged during this time, you must make a saving throw or the ritual fails.

Special: You must have skill focus of the ritual's key skill

Something like this might work... it means others have to protect the caster and they have to pay resources with a premium to use what is essentially another power option.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Who exactly are these 2nd class citizens? Anyone can take the ritual caster feat and all skills are available to all classes as a default.

The ones that don't get it for free. Because now we're back to a feat tax to keep up with the ritual casters if you expand their power.

Also, by that argument, anyone can take thievery, so the fact that knock is kind of weak is moot.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The ones that don't get it for free. Because now we're back to a feat tax to keep up with the ritual casters if you expand their power.

Also, by that argument, anyone can take thievery, so the fact that knock is kind of weak is moot.

I'm in agreement here. The idea isn't to buff up rituals much more than they already are. In fact, I think simply halving all of the ritual costs is enough to make rituals a viable subsystem. Right now, the only real problem I see with the ritual system in general is that the amount of money it takes to use them is so expensive that most rituals don't get used for a good 8-10 levels above their level. 1st level rituals start seeming like a good idea due to their negligible cost at around 11th level.

Also, there are certainly a couple of rituals that are completely useless. Those need to be changed in some way.