D&D 5E Why Are Ability Scores Necessary?

[doctorbadwolf]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. I've played a lot of characters who could be members of a given class, if not for the need for a high score in some ability or other. A rogue who story wise is hyper-intelligent, impulsive, and doesn't really understand other people easily, who is MC wizard because his story needs him to have spent most of his adult life ignoring a knack for magic, only to realize he needs it within the last few years (so arcane trickster would have felt wrong), and his high Int means that wizard is the only caster that mechanically works.
There is an incongruity with him that will always bother me. Given his enviroment, his strong faith, the animistic nature of that faith, etc, any of ranger, paladin, druid, or even cleric, would have made more sense. A bard that doesn't rely entirely on charisma, one of his lowish stats, would also work, but I MCd Wizard because it got me ritual casting and spells to counter enemy casters, and it didn't require me to build him with high stats that don't make sense for him.

On the other hand, in my in development game, Quest For Chevar, your ability scores are just a personal resource pool. You spend from Will to salvage crap rolls or activate spells, but you don't add any of the scores to a skill check. Skills are purely about training. You roll your action die and rank dice, and that's it.

So, I've been wondering, could DnD be made to work in a similar manner? Has anyone tried anything like that? Perhaps reducing the number of stats would alleviate these sorts of issues, so your Mind stat covers all the spellcasters, or something?


*Please note, I don't want advice on the character I referenced. He's level 9 at this point, and any different build would be a story retcon. It worked out, I just wish that the version of him that I first imagined, where he approached natural magic using his intellect and learned the secrets of countering necromancy from the spirits of his mountain home, had worked out.

 

[Iry]

I did make an effort once, but decided it would be much simpler to play a different game than D&D. I love me some D&D, but other systems do different things better.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. I've played a lot of characters who could be members of a given class, if not for the need for a high score in some ability or other. A rogue who story wise is hyper-intelligent, impulsive, and doesn't really understand other people easily, who is MC wizard because his story needs him to have spent most of his adult life ignoring a knack for magic, only to realize he needs it within the last few years (so arcane trickster would have felt wrong), and his high Int means that wizard is the only caster that mechanically works.
There is an incongruity with him that will always bother me. Given his enviroment, his strong faith, the animistic nature of that faith, etc, any of ranger, paladin, druid, or even cleric, would have made more sense. A bard that doesn't rely entirely on charisma, one of his lowish stats, would also work, but I MCd Wizard because it got me ritual casting and spells to counter enemy casters, and it didn't require me to build him with high stats that don't make sense for him.

On the other hand, in my in development game, Quest For Chevar, your ability scores are just a personal resource pool. You spend from Will to salvage crap rolls or activate spells, but you don't add any of the scores to a skill check. Skills are purely about training. You roll your action die and rank dice, and that's it.

So, I've been wondering, could DnD be made to work in a similar manner? Has anyone tried anything like that? Perhaps reducing the number of stats would alleviate these sorts of issues, so your Mind stat covers all the spellcasters, or something?


*Please note, I don't want advice on the character I referenced. He's level 9 at this point, and any different build would be a story retcon. It worked out, I just wish that the version of him that I first imagined, where he approached natural magic using his intellect and learned the secrets of countering necromancy from the spirits of his mountain home, had worked out.

I'd remove the abilities, and just keep the skills, making Melee attacks, Ranged attacks, Conjuration, Necromancy, Abjuration etc as new skills. You could also add the saves to the new skills as ''magic defenses'' Necromantic defense, Enchantment defense etc. Each skills is then not automatically linked to a stat (since they dont exist)

Then your class, race and background gives you a little more skills proficiency than in regular 5e. The proficiency bonus you would add to a skill roll should also be higher than +2 (maybe +3 to +8?), since you no longer add anything else to the roll.

So the most important thing for you character is your description of it and its proficiency on paper. He's no longer a rogue with high dex, high int, low cha, whatever. He's a rogue proficient in Athletic, Acrobatics, Melee attack, Conjuration, Transmutation, Necromantic defense, Nature and Religion. You just have to describe his actions as ''intelligent and cunning''.

 

[Big Bucky]

As @Iry said, other games do this better. Use the right tool for the job.

That said, I think we sometimes put too much emphasis on ability scores. There’s nothing wrong with playing a character who doesn’t have the highest score possible in their main stat. A one point difference in an Ability score only matters on 5% of rolls. And once you start getting magical weapons and increase proficiency as you level up, it becomes even less important.

 

[dave2008]

I've been thinking about this for a long time. I've played a lot of characters who could be members of a given class, if not for the need for a high score in some ability or other. A rogue who story wise is hyper-intelligent, impulsive, and doesn't really understand other people easily, who is MC wizard because his story needs him to have spent most of his adult life ignoring a knack for magic, only to realize he needs it within the last few years (so arcane trickster would have felt wrong), and his high Int means that wizard is the only caster that mechanically works.
There is an incongruity with him that will always bother me. Given his enviroment, his strong faith, the animistic nature of that faith, etc, any of ranger, paladin, druid, or even cleric, would have made more sense. A bard that doesn't rely entirely on charisma, one of his lowish stats, would also work, but I MCd Wizard because it got me ritual casting and spells to counter enemy casters, and it didn't require me to build him with high stats that don't make sense for him.

Several thoughts:
What not use the Arcane Tradition: Theurgy (seems to fit what you want)
Why not multiclass as a cleric or paladin and use intelligence in place of wisdom
Why not multiclass as a cleric or paladin and don't worry if your wisdom is low, you will still be effective.

 

[Blue]

Ability scores are not necessary. As a matter of fact, in RPG designs I work on the concept of needing or wanting to track a baseline or a small adjustment off a baseline is anathema - it's counterproductive. All I'd want to know is what makes someone exceptional - both good and bad.

D&D grew out of war games, which modeled (true to RL or otherwise) using numbers and rules. That D&D has these at the beginning makes sense. But we've grown and moved from that spot. Some type so game - that seek to do that sort of modelling - could use the same approach. Others trying the same thing could use baselines and exceptions. But that's just a small selection of types of games. That your sorcerer is slightly stronger than average is really not an important point most of the time, and can be a distraction trying to streamline a design space in order to focus mechanics on solely what is important. It's like an overly verbose scene description in a book that slows the tempo at a point where pacing should be tight and fast.

So I don't think ability scores are needed. But I do think a way to show hwo characters are exceptions are needed, and there at times will be overlap between those two.

 

[ccs]

Could D&D be made to work with fewer, or even no, stats?
Sure. But the stats are one of the things that make D&D D&D. The more you change that? The less D&D you have. Whats the point? If you want to play D&D, play D&D. If you want to play some other game? Then play some other game.

As for your MC Rogue/Wizard?
I'm sorry you chose mechanical advantage vs whatever actually made sense character wise.

 

[prabe]

I'll toss my opinion/s on the pile.

Yes, you can have a TRPG that doesn't have separate ability scores. They can work perfectly well, summing talent and practice as one number.

I think at this point some people want D&D to have ability scores for about the same reason some people want their mac-n-cheese to be orange: it's what they're used to (and there's a case to be made for D&D as TRPG comfort food).

Personally, I think there's a case to be made for ability scores, if you believe there's an important difference between talent and education/practice and if you want your TRPG rules to reflect that difference; I'm not insistent about having them, though.

 

[TwoSix]

They aren't necessary, they're simply sacred cows. As long as you're not simply trying to stack a bunch of 1-2 level dips together for MC purposes, I don't see a problem with swapping class stats, particularly the spellcasting stat. I just make sure whatever character is being built, they need 2 high stats, plus Con.

Just as an example, I was working on a detective type character, using cleric as a base. I felt like the character needed both high Int and Wisdom to realize the concept, so I added in a feature to the custom domain I was making which let the character use Int in place of Dex for AC and weapon attacks. It's not any more powerful than using Dex/Wis, indeed, it's weaker overall, but it fit the concept much better.

 

[ninjayeti]

Sure you COULD do it - but to what end? If your beef is just a specific character concept didn't work out optimal for you then it is FAR easier to just let druids use INT as their caster stat than it is to tear out one of the core elements of the game.

Attributes aren't a necessary part of RPGs per se, but 5E is a complex set of rules that has been built around having them, so taking them out will create lots of unintended consequences and I would not do so absent a really compelling reason.