why are orbs good again?

[Lord Sessadore]

When I read Sleep+Orb, this is what I see:

Sleep Wizard Attack 1
You exert your will against your foes, seeking to overwhelm them
with a tide of magical weariness.
Daily * Arcane, Implement, Sleep
Standard Action Area burst 2 within 20 squares
Target: One really important creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: The target has an 80% chance of taking quadruple damage from all of your allies attacks, losing all of its actions, taking a -7 to all defenses, and dying if it takes damage from a single attack equal to it's bloodied modifier until then end of its next turn.
Miss: The target is slowed (save ends).

One round to kill an elite with the other four members of the party is a little far out though. It would likely require that they all blow dailies on him, and even then you're not guaranteed to all hit, or kill him even if you all hit. You do get auto-crits, but only if you hit. And that requires you to ignore all the other monsters on the field, quite possibly putting you in a very tough situation if you get surrounded or whatever.

However, the point is that, if your entire party blows a daily each on the same monster, it should go down. No matter what sick combo you're using, 5 dailies should take out most normal monsters, probably most elites. Or at least very close.

Solos though, that's another story. It has to fail the first save in the first place, and then it's probably only unconscious one round, and 5 dailies combined shouldn't kill a solo outright - they're designed to take that kind of a beating.

 

[Subedei]

One round to kill an elite with the other four members of the party is a little far out though. It would likely require that they all blow dailies on him, and even then you're not guaranteed to all hit, or kill him even if you all hit. You do get auto-crits, but only if you hit. And that requires you to ignore all the other monsters on the field, quite possibly putting you in a very tough situation if you get surrounded or whatever.

However, the point is that, if your entire party blows a daily each on the same monster, it should go down. No matter what sick combo you're using, 5 dailies should take out most normal monsters, probably most elites. Or at least very close.

Solos though, that's another story. It has to fail the first save in the first place, and then it's probably only unconscious one round, and 5 dailies combined shouldn't kill a solo outright - they're designed to take that kind of a beating.

Rather than continuing to listen to me talk, I suggest you go ahead and do the math yourself.

Look at how much damage an at-will, encounter, and daily power deals for strikers and defenders. Don't forget to factor in the rather significant bonus for magical weapons. A party that intends to use this trick regularly will probably have Vicious High Crit weapons as well.

Then compare it to standard, elite, and solo HP.

Also, don't forget your party members get a +7 to attack rolls against unconscious enemies, and if you've got a Cleric, a Warlord, a class feature/feat that gives you a bonus to attack rolls when you use an action point, or several of these things your attack bonus is going to be so high you'll all pretty much auto-hit.

Orb isn't necessarily a must have for this. You could very well use 2-3 Wizards using action points to blanket-cast sleep on the entire opposition and then following up with coup de grace attacks. If most of your enemies bunch together (or are slid together by your allies) they've pretty much assured their defeat against this kind of group.

I'm not saying this is the only effective strategy, or even the best, but I don't see how you can deny it is viciously effective. It's like a boxer with a powerful right hook. He may not get the chance to hit you, but you know that if you ever let your guard down for a moment, he's going to knock you out immediately.

 

[Subedei]

Deleted, double post.

 

[Particle_Man]

A normal monster saves on a roll of 10. A 30th level Dwarven Wizard with 28 wis, Orb of Imposition and Spell focus gives this monster -11 on saves, and since a 20 is not a natural success on a saving throw, this means when you cast sleep on them, if it hits, they will never, ever wake up.

Not as usefull against Solos, they have a 25% chance of getting up every round, but still, a SoD that doesn't instakill bosses is a still a SoD, and it's the only PC SoD in the game.

btw, the demigod epic choice can bump up the wis of the dwarf or elf wizard to 30, for that extra 5% penalty. You can also buy an extra round if a Deadly Trickster makes a solo's save into a 1, after a successful save.

Also, I believe that RAI the monster would have to succeed on a saving throw vs. the specific effect that is being "orbed". It would
be silly for a high fort, low will monster to be more likely to throw off a sleep effect because someone cast Fire Shroud on it. So I would rule that a creature making a save vs. Slow does not negate the penalty for saving vs. being unconscious. But on the other hand, the penalty only applies if the creature *gets* unconscious.

Got it. The Deadly Trickster friend makes the critter fail the save vs. slow ("you rolled a 1, dude"). Then the Demigod Orb wielding Wizard applies the penalty to Sleep, and shuts the monster down, unless the creature is a solo, in which case he probably shuts the monsters down (20% chance of recovery). Of course, some creatures are immune to sleep.

Mind you, you can also do this at high levels with Legion's Hold. Stunned isn't as good as Unconscious, but is pretty much a fight-winner.

Back to low-levels. Well, the orb + sleep trick could buy the party an extra round or two. If the creature doesn't go unconscious, you can use the orb on an at will.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

@Subedei - sure, they dish out a lot of damage, enough to kill most monsters. I don't have the books with me, so I can't check right now, but seriously. An entire party built for devastating crits blowing dailies on unconscious opponents should result in dead bodies. Especially if you spend action points. You're spending a huge chunk of your resources on a single fight.

And 2-3 wizards in the party, all with sleep and specialized in orbs with high Wis? That's a bit of a corner case, don't you think? What's in the rest of the party??

Spending your entire career building up to the super orb-wielding sleep wizard once-per-day fight winner isn't worth it in my opinion. Too restricted, your build has to be perfect, and what do you do with yourself up until that point? I wouldn't find that enjoyable, but maybe that's just me. You also have to convince everyone else in the party to build up to it as well (though with significantly less investment, admittedly).

 

[KarinsDad]

Spending your entire career building up to the super orb-wielding sleep wizard once-per-day fight winner isn't worth it in my opinion. Too restricted, your build has to be perfect, and what do you do with yourself up until that point? I wouldn't find that enjoyable, but maybe that's just me. You also have to convince everyone else in the party to build up to it as well (though with significantly less investment, admittedly).

Actually, this is a bit misleading. Sleep can be used multiple times at high level. In fact, a properly designed Archmage can use it once per encounter as many times per day as he wishes.

As for lower levels, there are many Wizard save powers. Some control, some do extra damage. Either way is win win for a tweaked out Orb user who does not really need synergies from the rest of the group to be very effective a minimum of once per encounter (he does not use the Orb bonus until the power hits).

 

[evilbob]

And don't forget: you still have to hit in the first place. It's very possible to build a perfect orb/sleep wizard and have him miss the sleep attack.

Yeah, I still just don't see this tactic being all that viable before level 11. Once you boost your Wis a couple times (it should be at least 16-17 by level 11 if you want to use this tactic) and add spell focus to the mix, you're talking about a decent chunk off a save - certainly worth it for normal monsters, and competitive for elites. It's even worth it for a solo, honestly, if you can get it down to a 50% chance, despite what I said earlier: if you have a 50% chance to knock a solo out, even for one round - it's worth it.

But we're still just talking about 1 spell, once per day. I agree that if you have to give up too much in order to wield this power, you're selling yourself short. My main question now is: are there any other good reasons to take orb before level 11 (and access to 2nd implement is gained)? Because if this is it, I think a staff might be best for the low levels.

 

[Switchback]

Sleep should have been toned down at level 1 (no unconscious) and then put the power that offered this all consuming character tactic somewhere around level 15 or 20. So that Wizards actually would have some more freedoms at lower level without feeling that they are purposely avoiding the most obvious best choice at being effective long-term.

Now if you try to argue for a wand wizard for instance or a blaster you will get browbeat for not picking orb which is obviously superior. Of course the 'play what is fun' argument is always there and it is what I will be doing, but in no way should it have to be boiled down to that as a defense. These other builds should have their own own powerful combos and effects that can argue the case for them.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

And don't forget: you still have to hit in the first place. It's very possible to build a perfect orb/sleep wizard and have him miss the sleep attack.

Yeah, I still just don't see this tactic being all that viable before level 11. Once you boost your Wis a couple times (it should be at least 16-17 by level 11 if you want to use this tactic) and add spell focus to the mix, you're talking about a decent chunk off a save - certainly worth it for normal monsters, and competitive for elites. It's even worth it for a solo, honestly, if you can get it down to a 50% chance, despite what I said earlier: if you have a 50% chance to knock a solo out, even for one round - it's worth it.

But we're still just talking about 1 spell, once per day. I agree that if you have to give up too much in order to wield this power, you're selling yourself short. My main question now is: are there any other good reasons to take orb before level 11 (and access to 2nd implement is gained)? Because if this is it, I think a staff might be best for the low levels.

It really is once per encounter, not once per day. Just because you aren't shutting down the enemy doesn't mean that the orb is something bad. You can be using this effectively every encounter as low as 3rd level. If you can keep that enemy taking 5 damage per round every encounter(from fire shroud) for 3-5 rounds instead of 1-2 rounds, thats 10 more damage that came from the orb. Or you can keep enemies immobilized with web or icy rays. Yeah, it's all working in probabilities but its going to be useful. It may or may not be always better than the staff or the wand, but at the least its on par with them. Seriously, play with it sometime above level 2, even with as low as 14 wisdom it is very useful.

 

[KarinsDad]

My main question now is: are there any other good reasons to take orb before level 11 (and access to 2nd implement is gained)? Because if this is it, I think a staff might be best for the low levels.

I think it depends on the makeup of the group and the type of encounters the DM throws at them.

For example, Cloud of Daggers for an extra round is somewhat decent if there is a PC Fighter in the group because the Fighter marks a target that cannot move without provoking an Opportunity Attack.

Drop a 2 round CoD on the marked foe, the foe either provokes or takes Wis damage for 2 rounds (instead of 1). If he moves he provokes from the Fighter, and then the Wizard drops a 1 round CoD on the marked foe. For one round, that gives the Fighter 2 squares next to him where he (typically) cannot be attacked from and 4 squares out of 8 where he cannot be flanked (without reach weapons).

Alternatively, Ray of Frost which slows up an opponent to Move 2 for 2 rounds instead of 1 round allows the Wizard to retreat.

Sure, these examples are only a little extra damage and/or a slight tactical edge, but these things add up when multiple PCs synergize together to accomplish them.


On the other hand, if the DM throws a lot of group surrounding ambushes at the PCs, the +1 AC might help out the Wizard a lot more. But, there is a downside to staff use.

1) It requires two hands because it must be wielded to gain the AC bonus.

2) It does not add to offense like Orbs or Wands, so a PC Wizard that does pay the feat for a Second Implement still needs to decide which implement to use each round.

3) Having two implements at higher level requires having two magic implements with bonuses for casting spells (either that or not ever using the Staff again and wasting it). Monsters increase their Defenses by an average of 1 per level and PCs only gain level bonuses of +1 per 2 levels. This means that to stay competitive, PCs have to have magical items (plus synergies from powers, feats, and other abilities). For a dual implement using Wizard, this means two magic implements.


All in all, Staff implement use appears to be specific to certain Wizard concepts and DMing styles. Otherwise, it's not too advantageous in game.