Why are we trying to make 1st level PCs tougher?

[Felnar]

to quote Ryan Dancey/rycanada,
D&D is made up of different games,
"Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes"

maybe you could call levels 1-2 "gritty pest control",
and maybe instead of patching "gritty pest control" into just "pest control"
people could play the next game up the line that is D&D instead

 

[Virel]

Wary, "smart" players are fine, as long as one doesn't mind the game stopping for a while at each encounter.

And the neat thing about that is that hour or two that the players spend arguing about the best thing to do gives the GM time to check his notes, maybe go out and have a cig, surf the net, watch some TV....


I've always found it amusing when novice adventurers, who have never set foot outside of their village or encountered any monsters in their life, will abruptly become smooth, calculating, tactical geniuses. As if they've been doing this for years.

Sure it will take some time to discuss but after a time or two they should have a pretty fair idea of what to do.

As for the novice adventurers/tactical genius - if you were a novice and faced wtih a potential life or death event, wouldn't you take a little time to think thru it and set it up in your favor if you could? Why would the person that's a 1st level PC, do any less if his or her life was on the line? See most of this stuff isn't genius level, it's just common sense.

 

[Draumr]

I give my players a set of 'wound' points (equal to their constitution) that kick in between losing your last hit point and becoming disabled. Various negatives apply for entering wound points (chance of becoming stunned when taking damage and suffering from fatigue/exhaustion), but it serves to save their bacon from silly deaths. Wound points are also recovered slowly (similar to ability damage), so they don't use them lightly. I've found that it has added to my game in so far as it allows a low through mid-level party to take on more interesting and memorable challenges.

 

[Remathilis]

Playing smarter, usually does wonders for making characters more survivable at all levels but most of all at 1st.

I've played with a lot of people, but I rarely play with that mythical "dumb video-gamish player" who thinks every fight is winnable. Anyone who as ever gone on a raid in Warcraft KNOWS how much planning goes into one. Every Players actions are mapped out before hand, down to the spell order and aggro control. I wonder how many DM's would be happy with so-called "smart" players planning every dungeon with the same techniques as a WoW raid?

Run away today to fight another day.

Problem: You don't get XP from fleeing an encounter. If you run from every fight with a potential to go poorly (and they can by a single die roll at first) you'd never get XP!

Besides, do you want every orc encounter to end like A Monty Python/Holy Grail skit?

Use bait, to get the monster to come to you, then ambush it.

I dunno, "Camping" near a door/dungeon and having the monk/rogue "pull" an orc to the slaughter seems like it would get boring, esp since even the dimmest group of orcs usually would figure out that since Grunk chased the monk and got wiped out, it might not be a bad idea to get 3-4 more orcs and the dire wolves out and chase off the campers. Unless you like your orcs stupid.

Don't fight fair.

Tell THAT to the (Ex-)paladin.

Hire some mooks and red shirts to carry the torch etc. Dwarfs and 1/2lings are good choices because they usually run slower than the rest of the party. This matters when the group has to bug out and run for it.

I'll wager you don't have/play a lot of good-aligned PCs? And where are you going to get the gold as a first level PC to get these mooks, and when you and your four dwarf mercs leave and then you return sans dwarves, who in their right mind is going to hire on for your second expedition?

You know avoid the encounter until the party is ready for it at 2nd level or whatever.

LORD MAYOR: Heroes! Our city is currently being attacked by orc raiders from the north. I want you go to the Flinty Hills and...
PCS: Whoa Man! We're first level! Are you crazy? Haven't you got some rats or something we can kill until we're second level?

Teamwork and some basic tactics go a long way a lot of the time.

Isn't is funny that most of those tactics rely on cowardly PCs, dumb-as-rocks enemies, or dumber-than-rock NPCs willing to be torch-carrying meat-snacks? Do we really want our D&D groups to treat every adventure as a raid, every combat a well-rehearsed tactical strike, and every setback as reason to flee, leaving the help to fend for themselves?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

or dumber-than-rock NPCs willing to be torch-carrying meat-snacks?

I think I just found a new title ...

 

[Remathilis]

I think I just found a new title ...

You're welcome!

 

[DM-Rocco]

I've responded to this thread and feel that the question is best posed seperately rather than hijack that thread.

Briefly, the other thread is about having characters strong enough to not suffer a TPK in a particular adventure. The adventure is for first level characters and there's an EL 7 combat in there - though the adventure explicitly suggests that the PC be second level by this point. Still that's +5 CR.

Many suggestions have been made to improve the survivability of characters - Action Points and HP=Con to name two - but I see these as upping the arms race. Why not go the other way and keep matching low level characters with low level opponents?

What do you think? Is less more? Should first level PCs be tougher or should we make their opponents weaker?

I think every party needs that portion of the adventure to put a sense of reality and fear in the setting. I see nothing wrong with a +7 CR if it can be avoided by common sense.

Players get cocky all the time. They have an unwritten contract with the DM saying that the DM will never place a CR +5 or higher encounter in front of them. All that really does is make the PCs cocky and rightly so. A little fear never hurt.

Now, if the DM expected them to kill a +7 encounter at first level and he gave them no way to avoid it, then he might be a bit nuts. Unless of course, the DM gave him help, like a few hirelings or something.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I've responded to this thread and feel that the question is best posed seperately rather than hijack that thread.

Briefly, the other thread is about having characters strong enough to not suffer a TPK in a particular adventure. The adventure is for first level characters and there's an EL 7 combat in there - though the adventure explicitly suggests that the PC be second level by this point. Still that's +5 CR.

Many suggestions have been made to improve the survivability of characters - Action Points and HP=Con to name two - but I see these as upping the arms race. Why not go the other way and keep matching low level characters with low level opponents?

What do you think? Is less more? Should first level PCs be tougher or should we make their opponents weaker?

IMHO... the danger level of the encoutner should be communicated and the players should respond appropriately.. running away as needed.

Its not the extremes mentioned above, but a middle ground of good encounter design, implementation, and solid playing by the players.

However, I do support Actoin Points and Reserve Points as a means to keep levels 1 and 2 from being non-fun due to the potential for one-shots

 

[Asmor]

Keep in mind, it's not like the players go into an encounter completely blind. They should be able to roughly size up an opponent fairly easily (i.e. "It looks tough, but you think you can handle it." or "As you gaze on the beasts rippling muscles and dripping fangs, you get a sinking feeling in your stomach... Running feels like a wise idea right now."). At the very least, you should allow a wisdom (or even sense motive) check to get a rough estimate of relative power. Then of course you should also be letting the players make knowledge checks as appropriate to actually know a bit about the beast.

 

[Slife]

dumber-than-rock NPCs willing to be torch-carrying meat-snacks?

I guess if they survive they'll become tougher-than-rock jerky.