D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 fighter?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Conan is a Barbarian, and Jet Li is a Monk.

Depends upon how you build them...not all barbarians are Barbarians, not all martial artists are Monks.

Besides, I was thinking "fighter" instead of "Fighter" (yeah, I cheated).

 

[Nifft]

If the riding dog wins initiative

We're not talking about man biting dog. We're talking about which one is better in a fight against typical opponents one might find in a dungeon.

PvP is a whole little world unto itself, because PCs and monsters aren't all that similar.

Dog Boy needs only a touch attack to hit with a trip attempt, has a better chance of tripping, has ZERO chance of being tripped

You're getting mixed up here. The wolf or dog has ZERO chance of being counter-tripped. The feat Improved Trip merely removes the AoO a humanoid normally incurs by trying to trip someone in the first place, and gives you a follow up attack if you succeed.

Your Fighter CAN be counter-tripped, but he has the OPTION to drop his weapon instead of falling down. (That option is in the weapon description, not the trip rules.)

In toe to toe combat, he can boost his AC to 21 using a shield and Combat Expertise, being harder to hit while hitting more often, doing more damage. Donning a shield is a move action

14 armor, +1 dex, +1 expertise (BAB 1), +2 shield, +1 dodge... 19 AC vs. one opponent, 18 AC in general.

And your Dog Boy is not hitting as often since he didn't take Weapon Focus.

Cheers, -- N

 

[pawsplay]

We're not talking about man biting dog. We're talking about which one is better in a fight against typical opponents one might find in a dungeon.

I don't see how that is going to help the dog in the slighest. Many opponents have ranged attacks, and many are Large or quadruped. At low levels, the dog has a slight edge against sleep spells and the like.

You're getting mixed up here. The wolf or dog has ZERO chance of being counter-tripped.

I missed that sneaky little rule.

The feat Improved Trip merely removes the AoO a humanoid normally incurs by trying to trip someone in the first place, and gives you a follow up attack if you succeed.

Your Fighter CAN be counter-tripped, but he has the OPTION to drop his weapon instead of falling down. (That option is in the weapon description, not the trip rules.)

Exactly. And assuming he isn't carrying a second halberd, he goes sword and shield.

14 armor, +1 dex, +1 expertise (BAB 1), +2 shield, +1 dodge... 19 AC vs. one opponent, 18 AC in general.

Whoops, math error. But the same relationship applies.

And your Dog Boy is not hitting as often since he didn't take Weapon Focus.

Dog Boy, BAB +1, Str +2 = +3
Riding Dog, BAB +1, Str +2 = +3

What are you trying to say to me?

 

[Nifft]

I don't see how that is going to help the dog in the slighest. Many opponents have ranged attacks, and many are Large or quadruped. At low levels, the dog has a slight edge against sleep spells and the like.

The dog's speed (40 ft. = 8 squares = charge 16 squares) means he can get into melee with ranged attackers & spell-slingers much more easily.

The dog's +5 bonus to Reflex saves means he can avoid breath weapons & low-level save-or-suck spells like entangle & grease.

Large foes and quadrupeds are certainly a problem for trippers, as are critters which can't be tripped (like Oozes) and flying monsters. But all of those things are more common as level increases, and we're only talking about 1st level.

Above 1st level the Fighter beats the Riding Dog, but as level goes up he starts to get his ass kicked by spellcasters.

Whoops, math error. But the same relationship applies.

Not really. The dog is AC 16 for every opponent, while your dude is AC 15 for all but one, or your dude has a higher AC but he can't use Improved Trip, or your dude has an equal AC but he's -2 to attack rather than his usual -1.

NONE of those are a decisive win, since you're worse in two ways to be better in one.

Dog Boy, BAB +1, Str +2 = +3
Riding Dog, BAB +1, Str +2 = +3

What are you trying to say to me?

I'm saying that the Riding Dog can take Weapon Focus in place of Alertness, so the Riding Dog can get an additional +1, for a total of +4. (He still beats the Fighter in useful skills even without Alertness.)

I mentioned that Weapon Focus should be considered mandatory for both parties for just this reason.

- - -

Your Fighter's targets are:
- Move 40 ft.
- Jump +8
- AC 16
- F+5 / R+5 / W+1
- HP 13
- Attack +4 (1d6+3 and Trip at +1, cannot be counter-tripped)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

In our campaign we play feats a little differently. Everyone gets 1 feat per level and then their bonus feats on top of that. Part of it was to power the PCs up due to the difficulty of the campaign and part of it was to make better use of the slew of 3.5 feats out there.

It has worked really well and Fighters in particular have benefited. They have so many frikken feats that they are able to build feat chains and still take the one-shot feats that normally PCs have to choose between.

Right now we have 2 straight Fighters at high level and the party loves 'em.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm saying that the Riding Dog can take Weapon Focus in place of Alertness, so the Riding Dog can get an additional +1, for a total of +4. (He still beats the Fighter in useful skills even without Alertness.)

I mentioned that Weapon Focus should be considered mandatory for both parties for just this reason.

I was kind of thinking we wouldn't mess with the Riding Dog writeup, since the object was a simple demonstration. If the Riding Dog can have any feat under the sun, the comparision becomes much more complex. I mean, forget it, I'll take Imp Initiative, Combat Reflexes, and Power Attack, and a halberd and longbow. The comparison is not even close. Oh, please don't trip me after moving 40 feet, mister dead, no ranged attacks, can't hold a battle line to save your life Mr. Riding dog.

Your Fighter's targets are:
- Move 40 ft.
- Jump +8
- AC 16
- F+5 / R+5 / W+1
- HP 13
- Attack +4 (1d6+3 and Trip at +1, cannot be counter-tripped)

Cheers, -- N

Why, Dandu, do I give a hoot about the dog's Jump bonus, yet the fighter's easily superior damage and double damage versus charging opponents doesn't even rate a mention? Why am I worried, at 1st level, about NPCs with entangle spells, rather than Large, quadruped predators?

Why do I even care about entangle or grease, which at my level are going to have a duration measured in a few rounds? In the case of grease, I can just lie there prone, taking full defense actions, while opponents shoot at my prone form, hoping to roll a natural 20, until the duration runs out. In the case of entangle,... why do I even care? I have a bow. And a reach weapon, which does double damage against charging opponents.

 

[Dandu]

Why, Dandu, do I give a hoot about the dog's Jump bonus

Why are you asking me?

Curse my ability to know when I am needed by the mere mention of my name. It's not a gift, it's a curse!

Oh well, since I'm around....

I was kind of thinking we wouldn't mess with the Riding Dog writeup, since the object was a simple demonstration.

I see no problem with changing the example animals feats. I mean, it's not like we're using the WotC build for Regdar, the iconic human fighter, as the fighter's build.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why do I even care about entangle or grease, which at my level are going to have a duration measured in a few rounds? In the case of grease, I can just lie there prone, taking full defense actions, while opponents shoot at my prone form, hoping to roll a natural 20, until the duration runs out. In the case of entangle,... why do I even care? I have a bow. And a reach weapon, which does double damage against charging opponents.

Grease at level 1 lasts ONE ROUND. Failing is not. that. bad. As a caster, I never use Grease until CL ~3, so I actually get a somewhat lasting bang for my very limited bucks. Since no one seems to dispute Fighter permanently pulls ahead at level 2 and beyond, level 1 situations are all that warrant debating, IMO. Entangle is somewhat bad, but a Fighter who fails can pull out a bow/sling/xbow and fire just fine. Possibly even enjoy cover from the spell. A wolf/dog that fails...they can't do anything till they break out. What other good level 1 reflex spells are there in the game? Burning Hands is d4 fire, save for half, not that bad. Resinous Tar is like opposite grease, and has the same low duration. Can't think of any others at the moment...

TL;DR version: Agree with quoted poster.

 

[pawsplay]

I see no problem with changing the example animals feats. I mean, it's not like we're using the WotC build for Regdar, the iconic human fighter, as the fighter's build.

No, it's not. I specifically made a build to be as similar as possible to the Riding Dog as possible in order to make a straightforward comparision.

I'm not even sure swapping out the dog's feat is legal. An animal companion is "typical for its kind."

But let's assume we do swap it out. The dog's attack goes up 1. The fighter's attack bonus goes up by 1, and his AC goes down by 1. The fighter then uses Combat Expertise, raises his AC by 1 and lowering his attack bonus by 1, making hiim again equivalent to the dog. The whole point of Dodge, after all, was to make him numerically equivalent. Of course, in actually, he could choose not to make the swap, having a higher attack bonus than the dog, which means he actually has more options, which translates into more ability.

Finally, Regdar, assuming he closely follows the Human Fighter starting package in the PHB, has Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), and Blind-Fight. Assuming a fairly typical array, he may be one hit point and one point of AC behind the dog, or so, but is decidely more powerful. Assuming Str 14 or 15, he would attack for +4, doing 2d6+3/19-20, or Power Attack for +3 melee 2d6+5/19-20, meaning he has a reasonable chance of killing the riding dog, or anything else in the neighborhood of CR 1, in one hit, which the Riding Dog cannot do. He also has a shortbow.

 

[Nifft]

No, it's not. I specifically made a build to be as similar as possible to the Riding Dog as possible in order to make a straightforward comparision.

I'm not even sure swapping out the dog's feat is legal. An animal companion is "typical for its kind."

So you're saying a Fighter can compete with a dog, but only if the dog makes bad feat choices.

But let's assume we do swap it out. The dog's attack goes up 1. The fighter's attack bonus goes up by 1, and his AC goes down by 1. The fighter then uses Combat Expertise, raises his AC by 1 and lowering his attack bonus by 1, making hiim again equivalent to the dog.

This is incorrect. First off, the dog's AC is 16 and his attack bonus is +4 (with Weapon Focus) all the time. Your dude can't even pretend he has AC 16 if there are two or more opponents (because Dodge kinda sucks). Since Dodge kinda sucks, it's not true that taking it raises your AC by 1.

- - -

If you want to concede melee combat, I'm more than willing to accept that humanoid 1st level Fighters are way better at archery than Riding Dogs.

Cheers, -- N