Why deciding to round down multiclassing spellcaster levels was stupid

[Yunru]

First of all, if you think many of the 5e rules are poorly thought out, you aren't jaded, you just have learned the rules well enough to see the flaws.

Second, the chart showing all 0s is incomplete. You only look at Paladin/Ranger and EK/AT multiclasses. Rounding up is fine for those specific homogeneous combinations, but there are other combinations where you end up with a +1 by rounding up. At some point someone looked at the chart and realized that a Paladin 1/Cleric 7 has the same spell slots as a Cleric 8 and thought it was bad because paladins are supposed to have less spellcasting than clerics. And same thing with Ranger 1/Druid 7 matching a Druid 8, and probably some clever combination like EK 5/Wizard 5 matching a Wizard 7. So, because of these specific edge cases, we all get stuck rounding down.

That's because they're the only ones with a direct compariso.
Also what's wrong with those edge cases (excepting that half casters don't count at level 1)?
So the EK 5/Wizard 5 counts as a Wizard 7, what's wrong with that? An EK 5 by itself has the slots of a Wizard 2. Why should it lose out?
A Ranger 3 has the slots of a Druid 2, so why's a Ranger 3/Druid 7 having the slots of a Druid 9 a problem?

 

[Yunru]

You only checked the cases of 1/2 + 1/2 and 1/3 + 1/3. The rules make plenty of sense when you're looking at 1 + 1/2, a more common occurrence. A half caster gets more other features and less casting in any particular level. Giving full casting (because it rounds up) as well as the "more" from that level penalizes those that don't multiclass.

I'm confused. The only boon is the level shifts by 1. A 1/2 caster gets a caster level with every other level currently, and gets a caster level with every other level when rounding up. It just switches from evens to odds (discounting 1).

 

[Charlaquin]

It seems like half the stuff they came up with they just flipped a coin on. (Okay, so *half* is an exaggeration.)

I see what you did there

 

[cbwjm]

Rather than divide their classes by 2 or 3 and then round down, I combine levels of casters with similar advancement and compare that to their single classed spell slots. This avoids an eldritch knight 4 picking up a level of wizard and not getting any additional spell slots.

So a Paladin 2/Ranger 3/Eldritch Knight 4/wizard 1 would have the spell slots of a 6th level full caster.

Paladin 2 + Ranger 3 = half caster level 5 = spell slots of a 3rd level full caster.
Eldritch Knight 4 = 3rd caster level 4 = spell slots of a 2nd level full caster.
Wizard 1 = full caster level 1 = spell slots of a 1st level full caster.
Combined total full caster level = 6th level

 

[FrogReaver]

I'll preface what I'm about to say with the disclaimer that I don't mean this to sound judgmental or like I'm saying any one way of playing is better than another.

I've noticed that some players attach more importance than others to the idea of playstyle reflecting character concept. The line falls in different places for different people as to whether they are happy just roleplaying that their character is a certain way, or whether they need to have a special move or combo on the sheet to show that the character really is what they say it is. Usually these moves are combat-related, although not always.

I can't speak for everyone so I'll just speak for myself. So here's the deal, as long as the class mechanics mostly make sense for the concept I'm trying to emulate then I'm happy. Take the 5e Champion Fighter. I can play him as a raging member of a primitive tribe (basically a barbarian). I can play him as a devout knight in shining armor (basically a paladin). I can even play him as someone that gets hired to stealthily kill NPC's (basically an assassin). I can play him as a wanderer that goes around singing songs (basically a bard without spells). However, there's just as many concepts that the fighter's class mechanics just don't make sense for. For example no one can take the champion fighter and roleplay him like he is a wizard because no matter how they roleplay, the character can't do anything remotely wizard like.

Hopefully that's enough to put an end to the rather offensive notion you posted above, the notion where you classify those that want a class to enable their desired playstyles and concepts as people that are not happy to roleplay without some video-game-esque special move.

With that out of the way, Let's talk about the current state of the 5e game. 5e is a game where classes essentially get video-game-esque special moves and so players don't have to solely rely on roleplaying to fulfill their character concepts. Now we could have a side discussion on whether a system built that way is actually good or bad, but whether or not it's good or bad, 5e is already set up that way and also already has quite a few very redundant classes that were conceived of for the sole purpose of adding in new video-game-esque special moves that weren't currently in the game. (**Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin i'm looking at you**). Heck, they essentially are doing that very thing on a smaller scale with subclasses at the moment.

I think the non-optional game is not really aimed at people who (1) have highly specific character concepts and (2) demand that those concepts be modeled mechanically in the game rules, as opposed to doing them through roleplaying. For those whose view is "This is the thing my character does, and if he isn't seen to do that in the game, using specific tools to model that thing, then there's no point," those people will probably be happier with a more granular game--something more along the lines of D&D 3.5/Pathfinder, or even GURPS.

So after, thinking about the current state of the 5e game (even the core non-optional game) I don't think any of the evidence actually supports your (1) or (2). In fact I'd say it supports the opposite. They keep adding subclasses into the game, they started the game out with classes that covered conceptual space already covered by another classes and differed just in the video-game-esque special moves they got. To me that indicates that (1) they want players of the base non-optional game to be able to realize fairly specific character concepts and (2) they model those concepts mechanically for their players instead of just leaving such things for the players to roleplay.

So I very much think the non-optional game is intended for exactly the kind of people you describe as it not being for. I think pointing them toward 3.5e and pathfinder does a disservice to them because wanting a close approximation of a class concept and playstyle doesn't entail wanting granularity coupled with millions of options. As I said before, I can't speak for everyone else, but I most certainly don't like 3.5e and pathfinder and don't want 5e to be like them. Nor is any of my suggestions ever an attempt to make it anything like either of those games.

 

[Mistwell]

For example no one can take the champion fighter and roleplay him like he is a wizard because no matter how they roleplay, the character can't do anything remotely wizard like.

I don't know about that. You could pull off a hedge wizard of sorts, using race and feats. Human for an extra feat (meaning you could start level 1 with a familiar and two cantrips), or High Elf or Drow for daily racial spells and access to some additional magic-access through feats. Feats could include Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, Spell Sniper, War Caster, Drow High Magic.

By 8th level you can pass yourself as a fair hedge wizard. For example as an 8th level Drow fighter with a feat focus on spells, you could know (lev 1 Drow Spells (Racial), lev 4 Magic Initiate (probably Sorcerer as your racial spells are charisma), lev 6 Ritual Caster (wizard, because rituals have no relevant DCs or attack rolls), lev 8 Drow High Magic):

Cantrips:
Dancing Lights
Cantrip of your Choice
Cantrip of your Choice
Detect Magic (at will)

1 x Day Spells:
First level spell of your choice
Faerie Fire
Darkness
Levitate
Dispel Magic

Rituals (assuming you buy or find scrolls of them, and as most of these are 1st level and none more than 3rd level that seems reasonably doable):
Alarm
Comprehend Languages
Find Familiar
Floating Disk
Identify
Illusory Script
Magic Mouth
Tiny Hut
Gentle Repose
Feigh Death
Phantom Speed
Skywrite
Unseen Servant
Water Breathing

That seems like a pretty fair hedge wizard, without ever taking a single multiclass level.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure but I’m playing without feats

I don't know about that. You could pull off a hedge wizard of sorts, using race and feats. Human for an extra feat (meaning you could start level 1 with a familiar and two cantrips), or High Elf or Drow for daily racial spells and access to some additional magic-access through feats. Feats could include Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, Spell Sniper, War Caster, Drow High Magic.

By 8th level you can pass yourself as a fair hedge wizard. For example as an 8th level Drow fighter with a feat focus on spells, you could know:

Cantrips:
Dancing Lights
Cantrip of your Choice
Cantrip of your Choice
Detect Magic (at will)

1 x Day Spells:
First level spell of your choice
Faerie Fire
Darkness
Levitate
Dispel Magic

Rituals (assuming you buy or find scrolls of them, and as most of these are 1st level and none more than 3rd level that seems reasonably doable):
Alarm
Comprehend Languages
Find Familiar
Floating Disk
Identify
Illusory Script
Magic Mouth
Tiny Hut
Gentle Repose
Feigh Death
Phantom Speed
Skywrite
Unseen Servant
Water Breathing

That seems like a pretty fair hedge wizard, without ever taking a single multiclass level.

 

[Mistwell]

Sure but I’m playing without feats

If you're playing without optional rules, then multiclassing is out anyway

 

[CapnZapp]

Congrats Yunru for finding something to pour righteous hate on, that even I can't be bothered about

 

[Blue]

I'm confused. The only boon is the level shifts by 1. A 1/2 caster gets a caster level with every other level currently, and gets a caster level with every other level when rounding up. It just switches from evens to odds (discounting 1).

Yes, you describe it correctly. On half the levels it shifts it up by one. Considering the whole post what that half the time it shifts it down by one, I hope you can see how that's a big deal.

A Paladin 1 / Sorcerer 1 has the same spell slots as a Sorcerer 2 using your math, plus all the extra goodies a half-caster gets because they shouldn't be advancing their magic as quickly.