Why did Invisibility get the shaft?

[billd91]

What he said. The lowered duration on Invisibility (and Fly) gives the rogues and rangers and other characters who have put points in Hide and Move Silently something to do rather than picking their teeth while the mage does their job. I like it. YMMV.

Unfortunately, this logic also says that if you do not have a party with these skills invested, you're significantly handicapped. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of having reasonably balanced parties, but sometimes that doesn't happen.
How many of us remember playing tense games in which a wizard had to do some scouting in a pinch, used invisibility to hide in a room, and then sweated it out while the opposing general went over battle plans in a small room where just about anybody could trip over the wizard at any time?
I just don't know what's going on with some of the design decisions. The nerfing of the buff spells (which I partly agree with) and invisibility seem designed to push toward making magic items for the same effect. But it's kind of conflicted. It's like they want to present us with more flexibility and choices by allowing anyone invest points in any skill but push us in the direction of having to take Forge Ring or search out a Ring of Invisibility to achieve something that was relatively easily done in previous editions for a lot less cost.
I'm a little more along the lines of "If it isn't clearly broken, don't 'fix' it." Buff spells having a variable bonus AND a long duration was clearly broken. But fixing the variable bonus (and thus preventing Maximize and Empower from working) fixes the spells nicely. I can also see reducing the duration to 10 min/level or 1 flat hour. That way, the Eagle's Splendor might actually last the whole audience with the Duke rather than peter out after your opening statement.
Too many of the 3.5 revisions seem geared toward pure combat balancing or for encouraging more use of magic item creation. Sometimes I think that the tools some of the designers at WotC use for these things are a bit too much like large hammers. Big, unwieldy, and not very subtle.

 

[Belbarrus]

Invisibility:

1st Edition: Lasted until dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
2nd Edition: Lasted 24 hours or was dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
3rd Edition: Lasted 10 minutes/level or was dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
3.5 Edition: Lasted 1 minute/level or was dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
4.0 Edition: The Duration is concentration (to a maximum of 1 round/level)?



B

 

[Chronosome]

I like the "nerfs" overall, personally, though 10 min/level made for good scoutin'.

 

[MerakSpielman]

1 minute/level is fine for invisibility. It means you might have to use your Hide skill occasionally instead of just letting magic do all the work for you.

You're overlooking parties that don't have a sneaky person.

I don't like the invisibility change. Invisibility was never a combat-oriented spell in my group. The change relegates it to very nearly a combat-only spell, so I doubt I'll ever use it again.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Buff spells having a variable bonus AND a long duration was clearly broken. But fixing the variable bonus (and thus preventing Maximize and Empower from working) fixes the spells nicely.

I hardly think that giving them a variable bonus was anywhere near being an issue. Maximize only gave a +1 higher than the 3.5 version, at the expense of a spell slot 3 levels higher. In fact, the buffs, their short duration aside, are FAR more powerful now than they were before. There were always those times in my games when the Fighter really needed a boost to Con for the upcoming battle, but already had bracers of Health +2. He then drank an Endurance potion, hoping to get at least a 4 to boost up his Con and give him extra hit points. He then proceeds to roll a 1, granting himself absolutely no bonus to anything.

The possibility of getting a 5 was only an advantage assuming that you had an odd ability score, which was only the case half the time. (And very rarely in my games, considering nobody would put an odd number in their highest stat unless they knew they would be able to increase it soon. Odd numbers suck.) Wit hthe buffs now, however, they make it simpler and more reliable by giving you a flat +4. Empower, in 3e, could have given you a +7, at absolute most, but that's a 4th-level spell you're using up, and is easily dispellable.

Removing the variable numbers was hardly a balancing factor. If anything, it made the spell more powerful.

 

[WizarDru]

In fact, the buffs, their short duration aside, are FAR more powerful now than they were before.

If you have adequate prep-time, aren't suprised and have few combat encounters each day, that's probably true, to some degree. However, their short duration is a major balancing factor, particularly at higher levels, when buffs in 3.0 became virtually permanent spells, due to their long duration. Especially once metamagics were applied, which was just about every time for some spellcasters. I don't think you can ignore the duration question in regards to the spell's overall effectiveness.

 

[DarkMaster]

You're overlooking parties that don't have a sneaky person.

I don't like the invisibility change. Invisibility was never a combat-oriented spell in my group. The change relegates it to very nearly a combat-only spell, so I doubt I'll ever use it again.

In my world these parties never make it to 2nd level. For high level campaign it is a bit different but they must have some way of scouting ahead otherwise their life expectancy is seriously reduced.

 

[MerakSpielman]

In my world these parties never make it to 2nd level. For high level campaign it is a bit different but they must have some way of scouting ahead otherwise their life expectancy is seriously reduced.

If nobody wants to play a rogue, I'm not going to make them. I just don't think they should be the only class that can function as an effective scout. If a mage wants to burn spell slots becoming an impromptu rogue (via silence, invisibility, knock, etc...) then why not let them? Why nerf the spells?

 

[Davek]

Invisibility:

1st Edition: Lasted until dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
2nd Edition: Lasted 24 hours or was dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
3rd Edition: Lasted 10 minutes/level or was dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
3.5 Edition: Lasted 1 minute/level or was dispelled or the person did an offensive action.
4.0 Edition: The Duration is concentration (to a maximum of 1 round/level)?



B

5.0 Edition: The Duration is Instantaneous - subject will never be seen again (or heard of - they will cease to exist )

 

[James McMurray]

a) A Mage cannot cast Silence
a.1) A mage that gets himself silenced moments before walking into a dangerous situation is setting himself up for a severe beating. There are of course ways around this (silenced Dim. Door is a good one, but even that is dangerous).

b) silence is horible for sneaking. If every time you get withint 20' of someone the world goes utterly quiet, people are going to begin to expect something is up.

c) without silence, mages make horrible scouts, because they've generally got crap when it comes to move silently.

c) invisibility is worse for sneaking than the actual skill at high level. The spot check to notice that something is invisible near you is only DC 20. Competent gaurds with gear appropraite to their position should be able to make this by taking ten.

d) when trying to infiltrate a temple, Forbiddance with Invisibility Purge tied to it will ruin your day.

No, parties don't need to have anyone in them with sneaky skills, but if they want to scout it would behoove them to hire someone for a day or two, even if invisibility did last forever until voided by an attack.