Why do 4e combats grind?

[Vayden]

I started a new thread in the 4e rules forum consolidating my encounter building tips and throwing in a couple more - you can check it out here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...tion-aka-only-you-can-prevent-grindspace.html

 

[LostSoul]

As far as time is concerned 90 minutes on a chance encounter with some bugs is too long. Maybe its because I only get to play in 1 5 hour or so long session once every two weeks. If we could play more often (and longer) then longer combats wouldn't be such a big issue.

90 min on a random fight is still too long even if we had more time, now that I think about it.

Well, it depends on what your goals for play are. Right now our style is pretty hack and slash, so as long as the fights are fun, it doesn't really matter how long it goes on for.

Both fights were successful in the sense that we enjoyed running through them. The fact that it was a random encounter didn't matter too much.

(And in a way it wasn't just a "random" encounter; the PCs had two choices - the quick and easy route to the main gate or the longer, harder path to find to the back entrance. They gambled on the back entrance, ran into a tough random encounter, and paid for it.)

If they had ended up with an easier random encounter it wouldn't have lasted as long, or if the Hive Lord didn't Weaken with its Close Burst 5 attack. Without that Weakened power the fight would've been over in a few rounds - you saw how much damage they dished out to the 111 HP Ogre!

edit: I guess my point is that those encounters did not grind; they were tense, full of meaningful choice up until round 6 in the Kuthrik encounter and throughout the Horned Hold. Since Malchior went down in the final action of the night, the players still have to make meaningful choices.

 

[ExploderWizard]

edit: I guess my point is that those encounters did not grind; they were tense, full of meaningful choice up until round 6 in the Kuthrik encounter and throughout the Horned Hold. Since Malchior went down in the final action of the night, the players still have to make meaningful choices.

Understood. If it was fun and exciting then it wasn't a grind. My personal preferences for combat time vs roleplay/exploration time is the deciding factor for me, at least for regular campaign play. If I want to play/run a killer meatgrinder then the time wouldn't bother me at all.

 

[Rechan]

Lost Soul, I noticed something.

Bren used Sly Flourish every round. I realize that two people were gone (and thus getting their PCs played), but the rogue could have done something other than using an at-will every turn. He looks like he wasn't getting SA damage; your striker isn't striking.

Also, neither character with healing looks to have used any sort of healing powers.

Just an observation.

Kuthriks are rather nasty.

 

[Celtavian]

re

4E combats last an enormous amount of time with my group. Not sure if it is our DM or players being slow or the game. Probably a bit of a combination of factors.

The one thing that beginning to drive me nuts about 4E is the amount of minutiae involved in it. Every round some effect is occurring that must be tracked on the character whether a daze, slow, mark, or whatever condition comes up. It really makes 4E combat tedious.

I've gone through cycles of hating 4E to liking it to hating it to tolerating it. I've finally reached the point where I'm inured to it. I still don't much like it. I won't be purchasing any books for it, but as long as someone else is willing to buy the books and run it I'll play. For myself it feels like a glorified miniatures board game.

The same old problems are cropping up that were there before. It used to be that Fireball and Magic Missile were the old spell standbys of wizards. Now it is anything that is sustainable and moveable. And most characters love to take powers with the daze and/or sun effect because daze and stun are so much better than slow or most of the other effects.

People hate taking powers with saving throws now. Rarely does a power that requires a save last and most of my players hate to take a spell that requires a saving throw because it feels like they wasted a spell, especially when it comes to daily attack powers.

All this and combat isn't shorter than previous editions. Grinding combats are not particularly fun combats as far as I'm concerned. I miss the days when players could mow down minor encounters. They don't even fear solos. We have had one solo that caused any problems the entire time we've played. Other than that solos die easily because 5 or more attacks per round always beats 2 attacks per round.

 

[Jack99]

4E combats last an enormous amount of time with my group. Not sure if it is our DM or players being slow or the game. Probably a bit of a combination of factors.

The one thing that beginning to drive me nuts about 4E is the amount of minutiae involved in it. Every round some effect is occurring that must be tracked on the character whether a daze, slow, mark, or whatever condition comes up. It really makes 4E combat tedious.

I've gone through cycles of hating 4E to liking it to hating it to tolerating it. I've finally reached the point where I'm inured to it. I still don't much like it. I won't be purchasing any books for it, but as long as someone else is willing to buy the books and run it I'll play. For myself it feels like a glorified miniatures board game.

The same old problems are cropping up that were there before. It used to be that Fireball and Magic Missile were the old spell standbys of wizards. Now it is anything that is sustainable and moveable. And most characters love to take powers with the daze and/or sun effect because daze and stun are so much better than slow or most of the other effects.

People hate taking powers with saving throws now. Rarely does a power that requires a save last and most of my players hate to take a spell that requires a saving throw because it feels like they wasted a spell, especially when it comes to daily attack powers.

All this and combat isn't shorter than previous editions. Grinding combats are not particularly fun combats as far as I'm concerned. I miss the days when players could mow down minor encounters. They don't even fear solos. We have had one solo that caused any problems the entire time we've played. Other than that solos die easily because 5 or more attacks per round always beats 2 attacks per round.

Sorry to hear that your group still has a lot of problems with 4e combat. TBH I thought you guys would have gotten over them by now, as many others do.

 

[LostSoul]

Lost Soul, I noticed something.

Bren used Sly Flourish every round. I realize that two people were gone (and thus getting their PCs played), but the rogue could have done something other than using an at-will every turn. He looks like he wasn't getting SA damage; your striker isn't striking.

Also, neither character with healing looks to have used any sort of healing powers.

Just an observation.

Kuthriks are rather nasty.

That's very true. Bren the Rogue (who was being played by the Wizard's player) wasn't used very effectively; at one point in the second battle he misread Bait & Switch and used that instead of Positioning Strike. He wasn't really trying to gain CA to dish out lots of damage either, something I think the Rogue's player would have done.

His Blinding Barrage came at just the right time, though.

The PCs with healing (Malchior, Armok, and Wexley has Dwarven Armour, Comeback Strike, and the Utility powers that give you 2d6+Con mod temp HP and the one that reduces an attack by 7 or 8) used all of it; I just didn't record it.

Kuthriks are nasty, especially when they are dealing double damage. I think that if a DM uses monsters whose powers work well together can create a very challenging encounter for its level. This level 6 encounter gave them more trouble than an earlier level 7 one (they were level 4 vs. The Crusaders of Torog, some troglodytes and an Angel).

I'm also starting to get better at making smart tactical choices.

 

[LostSoul]

All this and combat isn't shorter than previous editions. Grinding combats are not particularly fun combats as far as I'm concerned. I miss the days when players could mow down minor encounters. They don't even fear solos. We have had one solo that caused any problems the entire time we've played. Other than that solos die easily because 5 or more attacks per round always beats 2 attacks per round.

When you say "minor encounter" what do you mean?

Check out my after action report - specifically, the first two rounds of the second fight. The first room with the ogre and orcs is a 4th level encounter. The ogre was dead in the 2nd round and the orcs, with low defenses (the Rogue hit on anything but a 1 with CA) would not have lasted long - another round, maybe 2.

My experiences with minor encounters differ.

 

[Rechan]

All right. I've discovered a problem.

Usually it's somewhere around 2 rounds before the fight is finished, it occurs to me that there is no way that this monster is going to be a threat in the amoutn of time it has left to live. That, no matter what it does, no one is going to die/be close to death.

Because usually the damage is spread around, rather than really lopsided. Especially to the damage sponge Paladin.

That is fairly disappointing for me. Interesting and dynamic fights are fun, sure. But I also want a level of, well, danger.

 

[Vayden]

All right. I've discovered a problem.

Usually it's somewhere around 2 rounds before the fight is finished, it occurs to me that there is no way that this monster is going to be a threat in the amoutn of time it has left to live. That, no matter what it does, no one is going to die/be close to death.

Because usually the damage is spread around, rather than really lopsided. Especially to the damage sponge Paladin.

That is fairly disappointing for me. Interesting and dynamic fights are fun, sure. But I also want a level of, well, danger.

That does happen sometimes, sure. In that case I usually try and find some way to hand-wave the fight to an end. Generally though, you want at least one or two characters unconscious at the end of the fight - my suggestion to you is to up the difficulty of your fights - you'd be surprised at what a 4e party can live through.