Why do casters get BAB?

[kitcik]

Then give bonuses based on BAB (like bigger 5' steps as in the other thread, breaking the action economy, etc.).

But the idea here is a multi-step process. First, you give casters zero BAB. Then, you tie additional benefits to BAB (see the OP).

For instance, if you got one additional action per round per 5 points of BAB. Or if you could increase the size of your 5' step by 5' for every 5 points of BAB. Things that break the action economy would be of great use to melee'ers.

Let's say that you could full attack, then ready your extra action(s) to fire at the opposing caster if they cast. At least it is interesting IMHO.

EDIT: more ideas - +1 untyped to initiative for every 5 BAB, SR based on BAB.

That said, the point isn't to make casters zero BAB, the point is to give melee dudes something that casters don't have and build on it.
so, for instance, every 5 BAB = +1 init, +5' step, +1 partial action, and +5 SR

Did you notice the part about extra partial actions - that means extra attacks even when they don't get a full attack. And, as you mentioned, the larger step also could put you in position. Also, I am envisioning that an extra partial action could increase your move (maybe adding to your charge range).

For this, I look at it and thing, "When it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If there were a serious game imbalance due to caster BAB, then I might bother with the extra work to remove it, but short of that, I fail to see why one would bother. If you can honestly say, "The caster won't miss it," that implies to me that having it also isn't a big deal, such that there's little point to the exercise, other than imposing an arbitrary symmetry (no spells/no BAB).

Not to flame a mod, but it does not appear you read the thread too carefully. Please notice, in particular, the quote I bolded.

Yes, I suppose this could be done in another way - just add class features to all non-casters, but I actually like the elegance of tying it to BAB.

But, clearly the vast majority disagree. I accept that.

Truth be told, [MENTION=41173]Buugipopuu[/MENTION] is 100% correct in that this is nowhere near a complete fix. I still think casting times / nerfing Concentration is the true fix. However, talk about screwing with mechanics - imagine getting consensus on casting times for all the spells in 3.5!!

 

[Jackinthegreen]

One of the better ways to fix melees is to give them maneuvers. Extra actions are fine and all, but there comes a point when "mundane" combat tactics just don't do enough.

I agree that BAB should mean more than it does, which is one of the reasons I like Frank & K Tome material. Lowering BAB to less than half level though? As @Buugipopuu mentioned, certain PrC's require BAB. Sure you could use the "fix" with ray spells where the attack bonus equals its DC-10, and use that in place of BAB, but then you might as well just use BAB anyway. It's not broken for casters to have BAB, really.

And there is kind of a consensus on casting times. The vast majority of spells are a standard action after all.

Also, the Mage Slayer feat can be pretty handy. Mage Slayer – Feat – D&D Tools. Between reach weapons, 5-foot steps, and other stuff, it can put a definite hamper on casters.

 

[kitcik]

And there is kind of a consensus on casting times. The vast majority of spells are a standard action after all.

Sorry - the idea is to use casting times a la 1E. The casting time would be measured in time increments - I guess in 3E terms, between 1 and 6 seconds for spells with a casting time of 1 round or less. The caster would "declare" their spell at the beginning of the round, and anyone whose initiative was good enough for them to act before the spell is complete would have an opportunity to interrupt the spell.

Without getting into the minutae of 1E initiative (there is currently a thread on that), this is more or less how it worked.

And there was no such thing as "Concentration" - if you were hit while casting, the spell was ruined. Period.

This was quite effective at balancing casting classes (although clerics were more effective than magic-users do to their ability to wear heavy armor while casting).

Sadly, this would require an extreme amount of mechanical re-working of 3E. What initiative roll indicates you are going in which second of the round? How long should casting times be? Should all spells requiring a standard action require the same amount of time? Etc. Etc.

Maybe they will come up with something for 5E.

 

[Umbran]

Not to flame a mod, but it does not appear you read the thread too carefully. Please notice, in particular, the quote I bolded.

I read the thread. I think the, "give group A something group B doesn't have," is imposing an arbitrary symmetry. You can build on the BAB of melee classes without removing it from the casters.

 

[Xakk]

I had a thought that led to a possible solution for the fighter wizard imbalance.
There are way to many weapons thrown in the 'Exotic' bin and way to few ways to get into that bin. It's just not worth a feat for one.
If Fighters suddenly gained access to a small number of Exotic Weapons of their choice at midlevel, that jump in power and versatility might put them closer to equal footing with Wizards. What do you think?

 

[Buugipopuu]

I had a thought that led to a possible solution for the fighter wizard imbalance.
There are way to many weapons thrown in the 'Exotic' bin and way to few ways to get into that bin. It's just not worth a feat for one.
If Fighters suddenly gained access to a small number of Exotic Weapons of their choice at midlevel, that jump in power and versatility might put them closer to equal footing with Wizards. What do you think?

Fighters usually have to decide what weapon they're using at first level, because of the large number of weapon-specific abilities. Switching weapons half-way through a build isn't going to do anything, and it's certainly not going to even put them on the level of the ToB classes, let alone the Wizard.

 

[Xakk]

Fighters usually have to decide what weapon they're using at first level, because of the large number of weapon-specific abilities. Switching weapons half-way through a build isn't going to do anything, and it's certainly not going to even put them on the level of the ToB classes, let alone the Wizard.

What abilities are weapon specific? One can cleave as easily with a dagger as with a fullblade. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Finesse requiring light weapons of which there are legion, and something like Spinning Defense requiring a two handed weapon. I think what you really mean are prestige classes, but no one ever mandated a character to prestige. Further, most weapons fall into similar categories (hence the weapon group proficiencies in UA), including Exotics, but they're usually designated as Exotics because they break weapon balance a little or have special abilities.

As for ToB, I have a love/hate relationship. I like that they found a solution to the imbalance between casters and fighters that so brilliantly meshes with the fighter's way of doing things. I hate that they did it by simply aping casters in a well executed way. Really, take away the 'hit with a melee attack' part of many martial maneuvers and you have a plain old spell being cast using physical key abilities.
Thus I want to find a solution to the imbalance that doesn't even factor ToB in.

 

[Buugipopuu]

The entire Weapon Focus tree, every Weapon Style feat ever written, Improved Critical (and so all critical-related feats), most Tactical Feats, and probably some others which I can't think of off the top of my head. And anything that relies on a specific weapon's special ability will obviously be restricted to weapons which also have that ability. There are very few good Fighter builds that aren't tied to a specific weapon. All the great builds, the gatling-chain tripper, mounted chargers, Jack-B-Quick, a Light Mace crushinator, and so on are basically single-weapon builds.

This doesn't address the main issue, in that Fighters could get Exotic Weapon Proficiency(All) as a bonus feat at first level and it would do absolutely nothing to the class balance problem.

Also: If you think the ToB is just magic for beatsticks, you've clearly never actually used it.

 

[kitcik]

The entire Weapon Focus tree, every Weapon Style feat ever written, Improved Critical (and so all critical-related feats), most Tactical Feats, and probably some others which I can't think of off the top of my head. And anything that relies on a specific weapon's special ability will obviously be restricted to weapons which also have that ability. There are very few good Fighter builds that aren't tied to a specific weapon. All the great builds, the gatling-chain tripper, mounted chargers, Jack-B-Quick, a Light Mace crushinator, and so on are basically single-weapon builds.

This doesn't address the main issue, in that Fighters could get Exotic Weapon Proficiency(All) as a bonus feat at first level and it would do absolutely nothing to the class balance problem.

Also: If you think the ToB is just magic for beatsticks, you've clearly never actually used it.

I can't XP, but this is exactly right.

EWP at first level for free is nothing compared to what I just suggested to add to melee classes, and it is still a drop in the bucket vs. spells. Heck, not even.

And ToB is fantastic. In fact, if you gave Warblade EWP for several weapons for free, it would help even more since Warblade can switch their other weapon feats to match their weapons. But, still not enough for even tier 2.

 

[Sekhmet]

As an intelligent person who also fights, I find this entire thread highly offensive.

Simply put (and in the offensive theme the thread has provided), stupid people learn by doing and intelligent people learn by studying.

A fighter does not cast spells (something that requires intelligence and years of study) by occasionally and casually watching a person cast a spell. Every spell is different, and requires hours for even a learned caster to prepare.

A wizard can, indeed, learn the basics of combat through idle examination. Watching a handful of fights, a wizard will learn that hitting an opponent in the head usually causes the most damage. He will also learn that it is inadvisable to strike for the extremities, as they are harder to hit.
Over the period of a few dozen fights, the wizard will have casually observed basic grappling, dodging, striking, and blocking.

After hundreds of fights, the wizard will know everything the fighter knows about combat, and will have theorized ways to improve the fighter's abilities.

However, given all of that casual observation and theory, the wizard has very little interest or actual practice in the matter, which is why his attack bonus, proficiency, hit points, et al do not change that much throughout his career.

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