Otterscrubber
First Post
An adult black dragon is a lvl 11 solo, while a dire bear is an lvl 11 elite. Why does the claw attack from the bear to 2x damage compared to the dragon? Should we change the name of this game to Dungeons and Dire Bears?
Why do dragons do so little damage?
- Thread starter Otterscrubber
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CubeKnight
First Post
Quick guess without checking books: The Dire Bear is a Brute, the Black Dragon is a Lurker.
Odds are the Dragon has a much better attack bonus than the bear.
Odds are the Dragon has a much better attack bonus than the bear.
If I were a dragon fighting a dire bear, or and other land creature, it would not get an attack on me before it was dead.
Flight is a wonderful thing.
3D >>> 2D
Byronic
First Post
Disclaimer: I am not a mathematician.
Compared to the Dire Bear the Level 11 Black Dragon has +1 to attack. However it still doesn't seem to fit. But let's take the White Dragon, raise him up two levels (+2 to Attack and +1 to damage, amongst other things) and we can compare a level 11 Solo Brute and a Level 11 Elite Brute
The Dire Bear attacks with +15 to AC and does 2d8 + 6 damage with his Claws and Maul allows him to do two claw attacks. Assuming everything hits it's an average of 42 damage.
The Dragon attacks with +14 to AC and does 1d8 + 6 damage with his Claws. With his Dragon Fury he gets to attack twice for an average total of 21 damage (again assuming everything hits). These scores HAVE been adjusted for the extra 2 levels.
So far the Dragon.. well.. sucks in comparison. However there are secondary attacks.
The Dragon gets to bite the person *if* both claws attack, assuming this works out he gets +1d8 + 6 damage + 1d10 cold damage for a average of 16. Added to his Dragon Fury total for an average total of 37. STILL lower then the Dire Bears damage, without even calculating that the White Dragon has less chance to hit.
Of course, when we're talking about secondary effects if the bear hits he gets to grab his opponent and if the opponent doesn't escape the bear can give him 4d8+6 damage (average 24), no attack roll required.
Claw for Claw the Dire Bear does seem better at damage dealing.
I'll continue in my next post.
Compared to the Dire Bear the Level 11 Black Dragon has +1 to attack. However it still doesn't seem to fit. But let's take the White Dragon, raise him up two levels (+2 to Attack and +1 to damage, amongst other things) and we can compare a level 11 Solo Brute and a Level 11 Elite Brute
The Dire Bear attacks with +15 to AC and does 2d8 + 6 damage with his Claws and Maul allows him to do two claw attacks. Assuming everything hits it's an average of 42 damage.
The Dragon attacks with +14 to AC and does 1d8 + 6 damage with his Claws. With his Dragon Fury he gets to attack twice for an average total of 21 damage (again assuming everything hits). These scores HAVE been adjusted for the extra 2 levels.
So far the Dragon.. well.. sucks in comparison. However there are secondary attacks.
The Dragon gets to bite the person *if* both claws attack, assuming this works out he gets +1d8 + 6 damage + 1d10 cold damage for a average of 16. Added to his Dragon Fury total for an average total of 37. STILL lower then the Dire Bears damage, without even calculating that the White Dragon has less chance to hit.
Of course, when we're talking about secondary effects if the bear hits he gets to grab his opponent and if the opponent doesn't escape the bear can give him 4d8+6 damage (average 24), no attack roll required.
Claw for Claw the Dire Bear does seem better at damage dealing.
I'll continue in my next post.
Flipguarder
First Post
You do understand you are comparing an 11 elite brute and an 11 solo lurker?
The whole mobility difference, attack option versatility, better defense, darkness zone.
I don't see any reason to compare these two monsters in terms of the damage one attack does for each.
The whole mobility difference, attack option versatility, better defense, darkness zone.
I don't see any reason to compare these two monsters in terms of the damage one attack does for each.
Byronic
First Post
The advantage of the Dragon (besides a lot of hit points, extra AP and higher saving throw) ) seems to be that it gets to fly and have very cold breath (slow and weakening opponents).
It's Cold Breath seems to be one of its more potent weapons as it makes the enemy weaker (causing the player to do less damage) and slow them down which both help protect the Dragon while damaging the players.
However it's still really odd, that a Dragons claws are less damaging then a Dire Bears. And I'm not so sure about it's advantages either. Slowing makes it harder to manoeuvre which means the players have to move less and weakening extends the battle since it causes them to do half of their normal damage (iirc) This extends the battle, which since the Dragon is not only a solo but a Brute solo is long enough already. I haven't fought with or against a white dragon but it would seem to suck. Of course a good DM might be able to make it work (even working within RAW) but I do wonder whether the same DM might not be able to make an even better encounter with non Dragons.... but thats getting way off topic.
Unless someone has another way of seeing things damage wise a Dire Bear and L11 White Dragon seem about the same. Until perhaps one calculates the breath weapon.
It's Cold Breath seems to be one of its more potent weapons as it makes the enemy weaker (causing the player to do less damage) and slow them down which both help protect the Dragon while damaging the players.
However it's still really odd, that a Dragons claws are less damaging then a Dire Bears. And I'm not so sure about it's advantages either. Slowing makes it harder to manoeuvre which means the players have to move less and weakening extends the battle since it causes them to do half of their normal damage (iirc) This extends the battle, which since the Dragon is not only a solo but a Brute solo is long enough already. I haven't fought with or against a white dragon but it would seem to suck. Of course a good DM might be able to make it work (even working within RAW) but I do wonder whether the same DM might not be able to make an even better encounter with non Dragons.... but thats getting way off topic.
Unless someone has another way of seeing things damage wise a Dire Bear and L11 White Dragon seem about the same. Until perhaps one calculates the breath weapon.
I think this is just a demonstration that the monster manual is a little bit sloppy in places, and certainly hasn't been playtested thoroughly-
One big example is that the black dragon can create a cloud of darkness that only it can see though, which is sustain minor, and recharges. This effectively means it has +5 to all defences, and +2 to hit, over and above its stats.
When writing a dungeon you simply have to check the monsters you run- compare them to the DMG, and to a few similar monsters. Also think how they'll do against the party.
In particular, be wary of any powers like the cloud, which are effectively a bonus to hit and damage. Also consider conditional bonusses such as those of the guard drake- If the party cannot do much about them, or they are in play almost all the time, they should be treated as part of the monsters' regular attack and damage.
One big example is that the black dragon can create a cloud of darkness that only it can see though, which is sustain minor, and recharges. This effectively means it has +5 to all defences, and +2 to hit, over and above its stats.
When writing a dungeon you simply have to check the monsters you run- compare them to the DMG, and to a few similar monsters. Also think how they'll do against the party.
In particular, be wary of any powers like the cloud, which are effectively a bonus to hit and damage. Also consider conditional bonusses such as those of the guard drake- If the party cannot do much about them, or they are in play almost all the time, they should be treated as part of the monsters' regular attack and damage.
The Dire Bear's actually got a higher Str score than most adult dragons, so I think it's OK that it's claws deal more damage. Also, claws (vs AC) are really the only thing the bear's got. Dragons have breath weapons (usually vs Ref), frightful presence (vs Will), etc...
Dragons are also not Int 2 creatures. I'd be a lot more scared of a dragon than a dire bear.
Dragons are also not Int 2 creatures. I'd be a lot more scared of a dragon than a dire bear.
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