D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[Zardnaar]

I think one of the issues is the mistake Wizard's makes when they create mods where you're fighting Tiamat at level 10 or whatever it was. Fighting the avatar of a god should be a fight you know you probably won't walk away from even at level 20. By having characters stopping world-ending threats at a relatively low level cheapens high level play for me.

I use manifestations, aspects and Avatars.

Avatar of a demipower could be in trouble vs a party of late tier 2 PCs.

Story could also involve weakening the god.

 

[Minigiant]

In 13th Age, pretty much all spells scale with level though. I don't think it actually has mage armor, but if you look at magic missile it goes from 2d4 damage as a 1st level spell to 6d6 as a 7th level spell

The point is that you have fewer options.

You aren't juggling 10+ spell with different resources each.

This is the issue. It's hard to simply get into the mindset of a high level character with a ton of options. And getting into one gradually takes several levels that you might eventually get bored of or wish to play another character by the time you do understand a Wizard wit a dozen different spells or a fighter who has a dozen different weapon techniques.

 

[Maxperson]

There is.

But not in D&D because in D&D, Strength is closeness to reality and has a long tradition. Thus needs specific rules defining Hulkness.

If you say, "I'm 24 STR. I tie a the rope ladder to the boulder, pick it up, and throw it across the gap to complete the bridge " some DMs will say yes, others no.

So you need

1. How big an object you can throw
2. How heavy an object you can throw
3. How large an object you can lift over your head
4. How heavy an object you can lift over your head
5. How far you can jump
6. How high you can jump

etc etc

Instead of a simpler RPG game could say "You are as strong as a giant and can lift and do the same actions as one would assume a giant can."

Part of that is that a giant is.................................giant. Mass accounts for a lot. In 3e if you were size large, like the hulk would be, you could carry, lift, etc. something like x4 over a human with the same strength.

 

[Maxperson]

In a game where the PLAYERS know what a Pit Fiend is, having their characters fight and defeat a level appropriate one at 7th level is a let down. In D&D, there are aspirational monsters, including liches and ancient dragons and the powerful demons. I don't think players want to fight lesser versions of those things (except maybe dragons).

Yes. Weak for a pit fiend is CR 18 instead of 20. You don't get to be a pit fiend and be weak enough for a level 7 group to take on without something extraordinary happening, like a god is holding back 2/3 of the pit fiend's power or something.

 

[Minigiant]

Part of that is that a giant is.................................giant. Mass accounts for a lot. In 3e if you were size large, like the hulk would be, you could carry, lift, etc. something like x4 over a human with the same strength.

Which is my point.

You can't just say you are a Hulk.
You have to say:

• Your Strength Score increases by +4
• You have proficiency in the Athletics skill
• Your speed increases by 10 feet.
• You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
• You can jump up to a number of feet equal to your Strength Score (minimum 10) by spending 10 feet of movement.
• You can grapple and shove creatures up to three sizes larger than you.
• When you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d8 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.

It's not a simple +X to strength because high level play involves breaking many rules.

 

[Maxperson]

Which is my point.

You can't just say you are a Hulk.
You have to say:

• Your Strength Score increases by +4
• You have proficiency in the Athletics skill
• Your speed increases by 10 feet.
• You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
• You can jump up to a number of feet equal to your Strength Score (minimum 10) by spending 10 feet of movement.
• You can grapple and shove creatures up to three sizes larger than you.
• When you hit with your Unarmed Strike and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning damage equal to 1d8 plus your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.

It's not a simple +X to strength because high level play involves breaking many rules.

High level play doesn't involve breaking many rules. It can if you want to make it something that it's not, but you don't have to do that and can just say, play a high level PC as written in the book.

If you want to homebrew in playing a hulk, you have to create rules for that. That's your issue, not the game's issue or an issue of high level play.

 

[bloodtide]

Short explanation, if D&D is monopoly than Pit Fiends are only at one CR.

That's an odd way to think of it. But this comes back to how you view the game and the DM's power to change that game. If you view it from a perspective similar to a board game, the DM is merely a player. A player should have to follow the rules. The statblocks are the printed rules.

It's not hard to see that logic. DMs and their broad latitude to influence the game has few analogues in other games and hobbies. In monopoly, all games play more or less the same. The banker has no power to alter prices, for example. In D&D, the DM can have an outsized impact on the rules. Two games, both using 5e, can play wildly different.

For humanoids it's different, and it's different because they adhere to the player creation rules in this case. You can build, within the rules, a orc that is level 20. As long as it's numbers line up with the player character creation rules in the PHB, you are still abiding by the rules. You are still playing the same game.

Well, now this makes sense.

A RPG is just a board game, the DM is just a player and everyone must follow the rules. I can see how someone could have this logic.

This is all a different perspective on the game. I, personally, value a good DM far more than I value my preferred system. I believe more than 90% of the issues people express with any system are actually symptoms of poor or incompatible DMs. But there are people on these forums that view it very differently, that the DM has no power outside the rules and that the system should play the same in all instances of that system's use, regardless of DM. In the latter instance, you likely find that Pit Fiends have only one CR.

But that's just my theory on it.

A RPG is a unique type of game, the DM is separate from the Player and the 'rules' are just suggestions. I think very differently then most.

I don't know. There's more than one published D&D adventure featuring a weakened creature and a little side bar saying something like "Its CR is 3 instead of 5 because of its weakened condition."

And yet people still have a problem with the concept of foes more or lass powerful then listed in the rule book.

Yes. Weak for a pit fiend is CR 18 instead of 20. You don't get to be a pit fiend and be weak enough for a level 7 group to take on without something extraordinary happening, like a god is holding back 2/3 of the pit fiend's power or something.

With my Unique Perspective, I can see a Pit Fiend of any power/level/CR. The logic that the Pit Fiend in the rule book is an average example of the creature sure makes sense to me. The idea that 'most' pit fiends "must" be by-the-rulebook seems silly to me. The same way it sounds silly to say "it would take the power of a god" to make a pit fiend weak.

 

[Minigiant]

High level play doesn't involve breaking many rules. It can if you want to make it something that it's not, but you don't have to do that and can just say, play a high level PC as written in the book.

If you want to homebrew in playing a hulk, you have to create rules for that. That's your issue, not the game's issue or an issue of high level play.

Thats the high level fans want.
They want rule breakers.

The system problem is it forces characters to need to break a lot of rules to get to the end result.

 

[bloodtide]

High level play doesn't involve breaking many rules. It can if you want to make it something that it's not, but you don't have to do that and can just say, play a high level PC as written in the book.

If you want to homebrew in playing a hulk, you have to create rules for that. That's your issue, not the game's issue or an issue of high level play.

I agree you don't "need" to break the rules to play high level D&D.

Really, the FIRST thing that simply needs to be done is to let go all your ideas, feelings, thoughts, restrictions, limitations, and all other self imposed things. Embrace and accept that anything is possible....yes, even that.

And for most things needed for high level play, you can fully "follow the rules" just fine. You can add a Flaming Sword of Fire that does unique fire based effects that are NOT listed anywhere in the rules. This does not "break the rules" in anyway. It simply adds an item to the game.

Homebrew, by itself, does not "break the rules". The idea that "only the hollowed game designers" can make anything is a silly and very wrong idea.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, now this makes sense.

A RPG is just a board game, the DM is just a player and everyone must follow the rules. I can see how someone could have this logic.



A RPG is a unique type of game, the DM is separate from the Player and the 'rules' are just suggestions. I think very differently then most.


And yet people still have a problem with the concept of foes more or lass powerful then listed in the rule book.


With my Unique Perspective, I can see a Pit Fiend of any power/level/CR. The logic that the Pit Fiend in the rule book is an average example of the creature sure makes sense to me. The idea that 'most' pit fiends "must" be by-the-rulebook seems silly to me. The same way it sounds silly to say "it would take the power of a god" to make a pit fiend weak.

The pit fiend lore doesn't allow for what you suggest. You'd have to change the lore to have a CR 5 or whatever pit fiend. Not that there is anything wrong with making changes like that. It's just not the game's default stance on the topic.