Why Do Many DMs Overlook This Restriction for Spellcasters?

[Gnarlo]

Hong "I mean, WHERE exactly does all that bat guano come from?" Ooi

Maybe this explains why WotC is pushing the Desmondu <sp> race so heavily lately....

/em gnarlo!

 

[Tsyr]

And just because a wizard knows how to cook, doesn't mean he has to turn into a homebody-ninny. Having a character with Profession: Cook could be useful.


As for the people throwing Eschew Materials into the mix, I think this is an excellent idea -- I like it, and I wondered just how many people used it as an out to get around simple components.

See, yes, you can force the idea down your players throats and say "See, it's not so bad, if you just take this feat, this feat, and these skills, spend a little gold, and a few minutes here and a few minutes there..."

But ask yourself, truthly, what have you really added to the gameplay experience?

You've delt casters a real blow to the ol' beanbag, lengethened downtime both in-game and out-of-game as wizards have to keep carefull notations of exactly how many balls of bat dung they have, making sure they keep more of it on hand, shelling out more money for it that they may or may not have to shell out in the first place, and in general made playing one of the most tedious classes to play much more tedious. Sure, they can waste skill points (which wizards get too few of anyhow) or feats, but doing that is harming the wizard, since he can't spend those few precious skill points on something relevent, such as concentration, knowledge: arcana, etc, or those feats on more important feats such as creation feats, and other (and argueably much better) meta magic feats.

And what has been added? Effectivly nothing except your peice of mind. Yes, yes, I'm sure you will say it adds realism. Guess what? DnD, as written, is about as realistic as saturday morning cartoons. There are far better ways you could start to make the game more realistic if it's that big of an issue for you than kicking wizards in the junk and stealing their spell component pouch. And in any event, it really *doesn't* make the game more realistic. It's not like they don't HAVE the material components, they do. In the pouch. You can still strip them of their material components, in many creative ways if that's what you want. It's just assumed that the cost for all the items is essentialy nill (Flower petals? Bat dung? Sand? Come on, that's not very expensive. We're talking copper per pound here.), and that the wizard automaticly gets more whenever he can.

 

[blackshirt5]

You have a real big thing about scrote shots on the wizard, dontcha Tsyr?

 

[Tsyr]

You have a real big thing about scrote shots on the wizard, dontcha Tsyr?

Comes from playing one under a guy who hates wizards with a passion.

That's also why I'm a bit defensive about it...

I've seen how easy it is to make a wizards life hell WITHOUT throwing the extra work into it.

 

[Mordane76]

You've delt casters a real blow to the ol' beanbag, lengethened downtime both in-game and out-of-game as wizards have to keep careful notations of exactly how many balls of bat dung they have, making sure they keep more of it on hand, shelling out more money for it that they may or may not have to shell out in the first place, and in general made playing one of the most tedious classes to play much more tedious. Sure, they can waste skill points (which wizards get too few of anyhow) or feats, but doing that is harming the wizard, since he can't spend those few precious skill points on something relevent, such as concentration, knowledge: arcana, etc, or those feats on more important feats such as creation feats, and other (and argueably much better) meta magic feats.

And enforcing these might finally quell the discussion in my group about the power of spellcasters in general.

And what has been added? Effectivly nothing except your peice of mind. Yes, yes, I'm sure you will say it adds realism. Guess what? DnD, as written, is about as realistic as saturday morning cartoons. There are far better ways you could start to make the game more realistic if it's that big of an issue for you than kicking wizards in the junk and stealing their spell component pouch. And in any event, it really *doesn't* make the game more realistic. It's not like they don't HAVE the material components, they do. In the pouch. You can still strip them of their material components, in many creative ways if that's what you want. It's just assumed that the cost for all the items is essentialy nill (Flower petals? Bat dung? Sand? Come on, that's not very expensive. We're talking copper per pound here.), and that the wizard automaticly gets more whenever he can.

Alright -- I am looking for some nod to realism. I can't accept a belt pouch of components that NEVER RUNS OUT. I can't accept that a wizard can blow 15 gp ONCE and never have to do it again to keep casting spells. I can't accept that players do it once and then just assume that it never runs out, without ever saying that they're restocking.

Some of the components, while not necessarily expensive, aren't necessarily readily available. When was the last time you saw some bat dung? And I haven't seen any sand in quite some time; I live in Central Pennsylvania... and most of the characters in my game haven't seen it, either...

Are your players saying they're picking up this stuff? Mine aren't. I mean, some attention to details isn't too much to ask, is it?

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Comes from playing one under a guy who hates wizards with a passion.

That's also why I'm a bit defensive about it...

I've seen how easy it is to make a wizards life hell WITHOUT throwing the extra work into it.

Yikes... You'd probably hate my item creation rules (which is a major Skill Point investment).

Of course, I don't hate Spellcasters, I just took steps to ensure that the world remains low magic. As such, I do hold spellcasters to components (including Sorcerers), simply because magic allows many situations to be bypassed (which non-spellcasters would have to RP/Skill Check/Think through) that I want to ensure that the PC at the time truly can cast the spell they are casting.

However, unlike your DM, I don't make life hell so much as make the pursuit of Arcane Lore a monumental task; The scholarly sort that must invest in all forms of knowledge and other Skills to become truly powerful (Libraries and Laboratories are expensive, after all).

Do I think it's a problem that only 1 Player in six years has played a Spellcaster in my game? Not at all; Obviously, magic is kept rare and the Player that is playing one has lots of fun doing it. That being the case, I consider the objective achieved.

 

[hong]

Alright -- I am looking for some nod to realism. I can't accept a belt pouch of components that NEVER RUNS OUT. I can't accept that a wizard can blow 15 gp ONCE and never have to do it again to keep casting spells. I can't accept that players do it once and then just assume that it never runs out, without ever saying that they're restocking.

In which case, why not just remove material components (except for the expensive ones) from your game? At one blow, you have dealt with the issue of the inexhaustible component pouch, without shaking up your players' sense of how the world works. Yes, enforcing rarity of components from out of the blue will have a bigger impact on the tone and feel of your campaign, than actually removing material components altogether.

Are your players saying they're picking up this stuff? Mine aren't. I mean, some attention to details isn't too much to ask, is it?

If it was fun, they'd be doing it already. Since they're not doing it, it isn't fun.

 

[megamania]

As much as possible, I assume they are using generic everyday things that can be found on the ground. Some components are much harder to get or expensive and these we watch. He trys to tell me he can identify using sand....yeah okay.

 

[Mordane76]

In which case, why not just remove material components (except for the expensive ones) from your game? At one blow, you have dealt with the issue of the inexhaustible component pouch, without shaking up your players' sense of how the world works. Yes, enforcing rarity of components from out of the blue will have a bigger impact on the tone and feel of your campaign, than actually removing material components altogether.

We kinda did this in our present campaign, for certain arcane spellcasters -- sorcerers and a homebrew caster called a wilder. We limited spellcasting by requiring feats to enter the classes. Both sorcerer and wilder can only be entered if the character takes a 1st level only feat. Wizard can be entered if the characters spend a feat for Arcane Schooling (either at first level, or with a modicum of downtime and a feat).


I'm looking at this from a more 'canon' game perspective, however. By the book, wizards are very powerful, and one of the restrictions on them is their components -- a crafty wizard can get around losing a spellbook temporarily by using Spell Mastery on their most important spells, but they can't just get around components unless they also have Eschew Components.

It might be easier to take the components out completely, but I think it loses some of the flavor I feel wizards should have. I might consider it, especially if I can find something I like better to replace them with.

On a side -- I agree with WayneLigon: I don't think wizards get enough skill points. I'm hoping 3.5E will fix that, but if they don't, I think my next revision of my homebrew will see some modifications to the wizard class as well.

If it was fun, they'd be doing it already. Since they're not doing it, it isn't fun.

I don't know if this holds -- it might be fun, but they might not know it's fun because they've never thought about it.

 

[Tsyr]

And enforcing these might finally quell the discussion in my group about the power of spellcasters in general.

It might. It might not. Because this really (provided the wizard is willing to jump through the hoops) wouldn't change balance much. It would just make keeping the same balance take a lot of paperwork and hassle.

Alright -- I am looking for some nod to realism. I can't accept a belt pouch of components that NEVER RUNS OUT. I can't accept that a wizard can blow 15 gp ONCE and never have to do it again to keep casting spells. I can't accept that players do it once and then just assume that it never runs out, without ever saying that they're restocking.

As someone else mentioned, just axe material components then. It's really a lot less of a hassle, and personaly I find most material components just *silly*. The tiny jam tarts, for example. I mean, have you ever stopped to consider just what a spellcasters pouches must look like inside after a day of travel? Bat dung and jam spread everywhere, crumbs, sand, etc stuck in the goo, crushed feathers and flowers strewn everywhere...

Some of the components, while not necessarily expensive, aren't necessarily readily available. When was the last time you saw some bat dung? And I haven't seen any sand in quite some time; I live in Central Pennsylvania... and most of the characters in my game haven't seen it, either...

I would suggest that if you can't find sand, you're probably not looking very hard, unless you live in a major metropolitan area or something, which is hardly a fair example of mideval life. It doesn't exactly grow on trees, but it's not so hard to find that it shouldn't be readily availible most places... Figure if it's within a days travel by horse, it's probably "availible" to purchase in the city fairly inexpensivly. Esp. in a world with a ready need for sand like a fantasty world would in the default DnD world view.

I'll give you some of the ingredients, yes. Bat dung, for example, or rabbit fur (Is that still one? Honestly, I havn't read the material components for any 3E spells, ever to my knowledge. Myself and most people around here ditched mundane material components long ago). But most of those still shouldn't cost that much in small amounts that a wizard couldn't just say "I'm stocking up" and turn over a silver peice once a week or so.

Are your players saying they're picking up this stuff? Mine aren't. I mean, some attention to details isn't too much to ask, is it?

Well, as I say, I canned material components. But before I did? Not often, but it didn't bother me. They also don't generaly tell me they go to the bathroom, the fighter doesn't generaly tell me they sharpen their sword, the ranger doesn't generaly tell me she does her stretches in the morning to keep limber, etc. But I assume they do. If a player mentions it specificly, I make a note of it, toss out a tiny bit of bonus RP experience when I hand out experience that session... But otherwise, no. It's just considered "part of life". I generaly assume that anything a person does their entire life for an unspecified but fairly brief duration just happens. Otherwise we spend an hour in the city while players describe stuff that in no way impacts the actual world or game.