Why do people dislike the Zealot

[Bardbarian]

Most people don't play to level 14 + regularly and are afraid of the high level abilities which seem insane on paper but easily bypassed at the level of play. While a high level Zealot can be difficult to kill if you apply their abilities to a setting of level 10 and under antagonists, they fit just fine at their intended tier of play.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Cursed, interesting. I like that. I think my barbarian will be cursed to fight forever until he can atone for a sin that angered the god.

My first idea was for a grizzled old warrior that wan't nothing more than to finally make it to Valhalla but keeps being pulled back. Maybe the gods want him on the material plane, or maybe they just don't want him in the afterlife.

Either way he's very grumpy about still being alive.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I am probably going to regret this but...What's wrong with the Berserker that allegedly makes the Zealot a necessary or welcomed change?

My problem with it is multifold.

1. The name Zealot is terrible. As someone else mentioned, it is immediately evocative of a religious type of person...not a raging barbarian.

2. Whether it is intended to "mean" this or not, words have meaning. Whether they are trying to "repurpose/reinvent" a new "D&D" meaning for it or not, "I'm going to be a Zealot!" is not a phrase -in any context- anyone should utter... ever.

3. I have an issue with the fact that Barbarian -the class- has become soooo freaking narrow that there is only "Rager" or "Shamanic Spirits-related guy." If the archetype is so pigeon-holed that all you can do with it is give 3 flavors of "berserker rage": Berserker, "Battlerager"<eyeroll>, "Zealot"<angry eyeroll> and 3 flavors of "spirits guy" then maybe it's time to acknowledge the Barbarian is a One-trick Pony deserving of simply being consumed as a subclass of Fighter.

4. All of that said, it is of little surprise [however unfortunate] and in keeping with long-time D&D tradition as a (sometimes less subtle than more) reflection of the culture of its day, the original editions modeled classes and concepts after Aragorn (ranger), Elric (fighter/magic-user), Conan/Red sonja (barbarian)...the Kung-fu Saturday afternoon series giving us the "Monk"...the gymnastics craze/fame of the early 80's, culminating in the 1984 Olympics gymnastics team, giving us the "Acrobat," etc..., etc... through the decades... that in 2018 in this country, D&D would give us the "Zealot." Can't really go more into it than that (thank the gods), given forum rules inre: real world politics, but really shouldn't have to.

Again, it's not ok. But it's not a surprise.

So, yeah, what's the deal with the Berserker that a "Zealot" is more desirable?

I admit I don't like the name. I also dislike Gloom Stalker because Gloom sounds stupid, Circle of the Moon which seems to have special connection to that heavenly body, Rogue which is more of a personality trait than a class, and Fighter, which I mean everybody fights. And yet I've still played and liked all of those.

As a bag of abilities I flat out like Zealot more than other Barbarian sub-classes.

Also, I've played a Berserker. And speaking only for myself, it's "deal" is that it punishes you for using a class feature in a way that no other class does.

Also:

"I'm going to be a Zealot!" is not a phrase -in any context- anyone should utter... ever.

Is a very pro Roman occupation of Judea stance to take. I'm a bit surprised to see it.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Cursed, interesting. I like that. I think my barbarian will be cursed to fight forever until he can atone for a sin that angered the god.

I don't have Xanathar to comment on the sub-class mechanics, so this is just reacting to the name:

Shouldn't a class called Zealot be some sort of Cleric, or maybe another form of "fallen Paladin"?
The name just oozes Divine connotations, not berserker-warrior.

While Clerics certainly have divine connections, Paladins no longer need to in this edition. Their power is derived from an Oath, not from a deity.

And yes the fluff of the Zealot is that their Rages are divinely inspired or divinely connected.

 

[Arial Black]

The name Zealot is terrible. As someone else mentioned, it is immediately evocative of a religious type of person...not a raging barbarian.

That's because they ARE trying to evoke a religious type of person!

Also, the barbarian character class is a set of abilities which are no more irrevocably tied to 'loinclothed savage' fluff then paladins are required to wear shining armour! I've played my share of civilised PCs with levels in the barbarian class, and I've even played a paladin with the Savage kit in 2e.

If anyone is familiar with the Wildstorm/DC comics character 'Zealot' from The W.I.L.D.Cats, her personality is perfect for this class. When I finally get to play Tomb of Annihilation she will be my PC, a single class Zealot barbarian with the Dual Wielder feat and the Acolyte background worshipping Tyr.

Even though she won't be able to benefit from the 3rd level ability re: being raised from the dead, it does give her temple a motive to send her to solve the problem.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you don't buy or use the supplements, then any sort of official acknowledgement that an old option is bad and needs to be officially replaced, is actually an official endorsement that the one existing option is broken and should not be used.

I'm not going to keep playing a game if I have no confidence in it as a ruleset, and I'm not going to maintain confidence in a game if the designers acknowledge that it's broken.

You misread my post. The "you" in my sentence refers to y'all, not the official developers.

What you have done is identify the probable reason why the devs have opted for stealth-upgrades instead of official upgrades. They simply want the people that are fine with the PHB subclasses to remain happy, while also providing the people that are not fine with alternatives.

The only people that are not happy are the ones insisting the new options make the old into "trap" options, to which I say: they're just as much or little a trap option after the release of XGE as before.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The only people that are not happy are the ones insisting the new options make the old into "trap" options, to which I say: they're just as much or little a trap option after the release of XGE as before.

There's a difference between me trying to choose between the Berserker and Totem subclasses and probably choosing to go with Totem since resistance to energy damage is marginally superior to getting an extra attack per round in one combat per day, and the official developers of the game officially declaring that the Berserker subclass is a garbage subclass for idiots and absolutely nobody should ever play it unless they're intentionally trying to make an under-powered character.

If the Zealot is supposed to be Berserker 2.0 because the original Berserker is considered unplayably bad, then that's a problem. That they choose to hide it as a stealth-upgrade, rather than address it with errata, does not make it less of a problem; in either case, it's bad enough to require an official fix. There is no positive way to spin this issue, if the Zealot is supposed to replace the Berserker.

If the Zealot is not supposed to replace the Berserker, than that indicates the developers still have some confidence in the Berserker; it may be less popular, but they still think it's good enough to be fun at the table. In that case, and that case alone, the introduction of the Zealot is not indicative of a problem with the product I already own. The disparity may still exist, but it's not so incredibly insurmountable that they feel the need to address it with an official patch.

 

[neogod22]

There's a difference between me trying to choose between the Berserker and Totem subclasses and probably choosing to go with Totem since resistance to energy damage is marginally superior to getting an extra attack per round in one combat per day, and the official developers of the game officially declaring that the Berserker subclass is a garbage subclass for idiots and absolutely nobody should ever play it unless they're intentionally trying to make an under-powered character.

If the Zealot is supposed to be Berserker 2.0 because the original Berserker is considered unplayably bad, then that's a problem. That they choose to hide it as a stealth-upgrade, rather than address it with errata, does not make it less of a problem; in either case, it's bad enough to require an official fix. There is no positive way to spin this issue, if the Zealot is supposed to replace the Berserker.

If the Zealot is not supposed to replace the Berserker, than that indicates the developers still have some confidence in the Berserker; it may be less popular, but they still think it's good enough to be fun at the table. In that case, and that case alone, the introduction of the Zealot is not indicative of a problem with the product I already own. The disparity may still exist, but it's not so incredibly insurmountable that they feel the need to address it with an official patch.

They aren't going to fix anything that's already printed, they've stated that time and time again. New subclasses do not replace old ones, just provide more options.

 

[Slit518]

I know that this idea is not had by everyone but it seems to me that the Zealot is not liked by the community.

According to http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Subclasses-(Non-Magic)-THERE-CAN-BE-ONLY-ONE! Out of 25 subclasses it was the second one removed.

I did notice something though some people don't like that it was named Zealot.

So is the Zealot a bad subclass or a poorly named subclass? If you think it is bad, why is it bad?

Is the Zealot an official sub-class, or just an idea?

 

[BookBarbarian]

If the Zealot is not supposed to replace the Berserker, than that indicates the developers still have some confidence in the Berserker; it may be less popular, but they still think it's good enough to be fun at the table. In that case, and that case alone, the introduction of the Zealot is not indicative of a problem with the product I already own. The disparity may still exist, but it's not so incredibly insurmountable that they feel the need to address it with an official patch.

I think this is true. Zealot was not designed to replace the Berserker IMHO, it is however easy to file off the serial numbers and have a Zealot that is not a Divine Rager but Just a Rager. A Rager that is IMHO more fun to play than a Berserker.