Glad I was able to clear that up with you and avoided a big spill. I do disagree with you about the rewards not being more staisfing though. I personal would feel alot more satisfed with saving an entire kingdom from a invasion the simply saving the princess from a kindnapper. Though both have good merits.
Why do people think high-level play is munchkin? I've got a theory
- Thread starter Green Knight
- Start date
Desdichado
Hero
Sounds like that's a DM problem. In the Witchfire trilogy, for instance, low to mid level characters are expected to save the kingdom from several consecutive invasions, and there's no princess rescuing. Level has nothing to do with that, just the skills of the DM.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Re: Re: Ah, the days of youth...
Munchkins *are* great for gaining an understanding of the rules, I will grant you that, but if you want an extended campaign with them, it's best to help them overcome these tendencies... after all, the concept of the "bigger, badder sword" gets stale for most of us fairly quickly.
--The Sigil
I have had to deal with a munchkin or two in my day, but I have found that the best way to deal with it without attacking the munchkin is to subtly "change the carrot" - instead of offering power in the form of the bigger, badder magic sword, offer power in the form of connections with the king, noble titles (and the associated land and income) and so forth... (see my "change the smelly carrot" thread). Suddenly, the munchkin realizes that his awesome sword isn't nearly as powerful as the army his less-adept-with-a-sword-but-a-great-diplomatic-and-leader-type friend has.Valicor said:
Munchkins *are* great for gaining an understanding of the rules, I will grant you that, but if you want an extended campaign with them, it's best to help them overcome these tendencies... after all, the concept of the "bigger, badder sword" gets stale for most of us fairly quickly.
--The Sigil
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
Well...
..maybe the experience is a valuable one...once is enough, though.
For me, a munchkin is no "general" to apply to gamers...it´s dependant on the individual player, although I have to admit, they share some traits I find most intolerable as DM.
One is that they always, and I mean always go and min-max their characters in a way that is nearly disgusting. Their characters tend to outfight the fighter while still being able to cast spells and sneak circles around the group´s rogue. As a 1st level PC couldn´t do that kind of tricks, they tend to disdain low-level campaigns, though, rather starting a higher-level character from scratch.
Another very unpleasant fact is that munchkin players tend to try and get around the DM´s decisions any way they can to get what they want. If you confront them outright with a "no", they fall back on quoting rules, sometimes from obscure sources, that support them in what they want, and if you tell them that your decision is final they start to sulk and try to pester you until you give in.
That´s the experience I had with munchkin players...and I sure don´t need any more of them. And it wasn´t limited to high-level campaigns either.
..maybe the experience is a valuable one...once is enough, though.
For me, a munchkin is no "general" to apply to gamers...it´s dependant on the individual player, although I have to admit, they share some traits I find most intolerable as DM.
One is that they always, and I mean always go and min-max their characters in a way that is nearly disgusting. Their characters tend to outfight the fighter while still being able to cast spells and sneak circles around the group´s rogue. As a 1st level PC couldn´t do that kind of tricks, they tend to disdain low-level campaigns, though, rather starting a higher-level character from scratch.
Another very unpleasant fact is that munchkin players tend to try and get around the DM´s decisions any way they can to get what they want. If you confront them outright with a "no", they fall back on quoting rules, sometimes from obscure sources, that support them in what they want, and if you tell them that your decision is final they start to sulk and try to pester you until you give in.
That´s the experience I had with munchkin players...and I sure don´t need any more of them. And it wasn´t limited to high-level campaigns either.
Re: Re: Re: Ah, the days of youth...
Those are some great points and ideas Sigil. I like the way you think.
Also Geron Raveneye, you have a good point, It is annoying to deal with them on a long term basis. that is why if I have munckins, I only put up with it for short ammounts of time. Like Sigil sujessted it is good to try and change them.
The Sigil said:
Those are some great points and ideas Sigil. I like the way you think.
Also Geron Raveneye, you have a good point, It is annoying to deal with them on a long term basis. that is why if I have munckins, I only put up with it for short ammounts of time. Like Sigil sujessted it is good to try and change them.
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Ulrick
First Post
I've never really equated high level play with munchkinism--although I've experienced it first hand in a group a gaming with a few years ago.
When I think of high level gaming the first thing that pops in my mind is "The Return to the Tomb of Horrors" followed by "The Rod of Seven Parts" then "Isle of the Ape." And finally that really cool adventure in Dungeon #92-- "The Razing of Redshore." All these adventures are tough and deal with epic themes. I think a good high-level game makes it so it doesn't matter if you have a +5 vorpal weapon or a "wish" spell.
I don't think munchkins could survive "The Return to the Tomb of Horrors" or "Isle of the Ape."
Now when I hear a player go "blah blah" about all the kewl powerz and itemz his character has that he really didn't earn but were given to him, that's when I start thinking toward munchkinism--no matter what level his character is.
Edit: And that's when I say to him..."I bet your character can make it through the Tomb of Horrors" ...hoping that he'll take up that challenge.
Ulrick
When I think of high level gaming the first thing that pops in my mind is "The Return to the Tomb of Horrors" followed by "The Rod of Seven Parts" then "Isle of the Ape." And finally that really cool adventure in Dungeon #92-- "The Razing of Redshore." All these adventures are tough and deal with epic themes. I think a good high-level game makes it so it doesn't matter if you have a +5 vorpal weapon or a "wish" spell.
I don't think munchkins could survive "The Return to the Tomb of Horrors" or "Isle of the Ape."
Now when I hear a player go "blah blah" about all the kewl powerz and itemz his character has that he really didn't earn but were given to him, that's when I start thinking toward munchkinism--no matter what level his character is.
Edit: And that's when I say to him..."I bet your character can make it through the Tomb of Horrors" ...hoping that he'll take up that challenge.
Ulrick
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Victim
First Post
Probably the biggest problem with high level play is the difficultly in encounter design, compounded by the problems with adventure design. People having problems in these areas are going to consider the game munchkin because the PCs are too powerful.
High level characters have a wide variety of abilities that can make designing a proper fight difficult. So much can depend on what spells the group prepares, so creating an encounter that considers ALL the characters' powers is difficult. If the spellcasters happen to have the right spells on hand, then what should have a tough battle becomes a one or two shot fight. DMs and some of the players will get frustrated because the group overpowered their foes too easily. Also, some people have a tendency to create one trick pony characters. If high level character focuses all his resources into one narrow area, he can be very dominant in that regard - speak to Mr. Ginsu for more details. If things can always be resolved with that area, that character will be overpowering and be labeled munchkin. On the other hand, the player will get bored and frustrated if he can never use his powers - "This adventure, like the last 5, focuses on undead, constructs, and elementals."
Adventure design can be just as bad. If the sorcerer just learns teleport, and the DM hasn't really considered the spell, then teleport will cause problems. The player might use the teleport to circumvent lots of the adventure. To the DM, teleporting is cheesy, munchkin trick that ruins the game. To the player, it's a fair use a hard earned ability - after all, Teleport should be as good as Cone of Cold or Hold Monster, or anyother spell he could have taken.
High level characters have a wide variety of abilities that can make designing a proper fight difficult. So much can depend on what spells the group prepares, so creating an encounter that considers ALL the characters' powers is difficult. If the spellcasters happen to have the right spells on hand, then what should have a tough battle becomes a one or two shot fight. DMs and some of the players will get frustrated because the group overpowered their foes too easily. Also, some people have a tendency to create one trick pony characters. If high level character focuses all his resources into one narrow area, he can be very dominant in that regard - speak to Mr. Ginsu for more details. If things can always be resolved with that area, that character will be overpowering and be labeled munchkin. On the other hand, the player will get bored and frustrated if he can never use his powers - "This adventure, like the last 5, focuses on undead, constructs, and elementals."
Adventure design can be just as bad. If the sorcerer just learns teleport, and the DM hasn't really considered the spell, then teleport will cause problems. The player might use the teleport to circumvent lots of the adventure. To the DM, teleporting is cheesy, munchkin trick that ruins the game. To the player, it's a fair use a hard earned ability - after all, Teleport should be as good as Cone of Cold or Hold Monster, or anyother spell he could have taken.
MaxKaladin
First Post
Re: Ah, the days of youth...
No. I don't doubt there are legitimate high-level games out there. I'm just remarking that a lot of people took shortcuts and that caused the perception problem. I commend you for pulling it off at such a young age. My own experiences near that age were trying to keep things 'reasonable' while everyone else tried to 'power up'. That bit I mentioned about going up 10 levels from one dragon horde? When I was 13, I had a DM pull that on me so we could get 'kewl powerz' in the game.
The Sigil said:
No. I don't doubt there are legitimate high-level games out there. I'm just remarking that a lot of people took shortcuts and that caused the perception problem. I commend you for pulling it off at such a young age. My own experiences near that age were trying to keep things 'reasonable' while everyone else tried to 'power up'. That bit I mentioned about going up 10 levels from one dragon horde? When I was 13, I had a DM pull that on me so we could get 'kewl powerz' in the game.
Aaron L
Hero
What is wrong with munchkins? If they're in your game and making it less fun for you, then I can see a problem. But if somebody, somewhere, wants to play a game of D&D just to get powerful characters and do crazy things they never could in real life, what's the problem? Almost everyone starts out in RPGs as a munchkin. Some people develop different tastes, and some don't. If they are having fun, it isn't hurting me.
This goes along with the disdain of "dungeoneering" games. I love dungeon romps. I love to roleplay a dungeon adventurer. Some of my groups best roleplaying have come put of dungeon hacking games, where we had no far spanning plots to worry about, and so we just relaxed into our characters and spent entire game sessions just playing out what we did. I remember a clericof mine in 1E, who had an elephant figurine of wondrous power, giving rides to the local village children, and this was in a game where we just went into the dungeon, came out to sell our loot, and then partied and relaxed with the locals. It devoleped slightly, but never went beyond the basic door smashing fun of a light game.
This goes along with the disdain of "dungeoneering" games. I love dungeon romps. I love to roleplay a dungeon adventurer. Some of my groups best roleplaying have come put of dungeon hacking games, where we had no far spanning plots to worry about, and so we just relaxed into our characters and spent entire game sessions just playing out what we did. I remember a clericof mine in 1E, who had an elephant figurine of wondrous power, giving rides to the local village children, and this was in a game where we just went into the dungeon, came out to sell our loot, and then partied and relaxed with the locals. It devoleped slightly, but never went beyond the basic door smashing fun of a light game.
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Rashak Mani
First Post
Actually I used to think high level = Munchkin... but then we only played higher levels with PC created for the adventure. This thread has changed my opinion about this.
As normal, socially and sexually active adults we just dont have the time to play twice a week and have campaigns at 15 + lvls... the farthest we have gone level by level was 9th and 8th lvl until now.... really hard to play from 1st to 20th lvl.
Also the political game is much harder for a DM to create and to manage... congratulations to the DMs who can manage it... I personally dont do a good job of creating politacally motivated adventures. After reading this thread I wish I could.
But its understandable why so many accuse high level of being munchkinistic... especially with characters made with the money recommended. Our 8th lvl characters are at least 20% - 40% behind the recommended Gold... and we didnt spend a lot of money on other stuff...
Anyone has good ideas how to fasttrack PCs to 20th lvl without allowing for too much customization ? Is it possible to play the characters and make them advance very fast in order to reach higher levels without their being munchkinised ?
As normal, socially and sexually active adults we just dont have the time to play twice a week and have campaigns at 15 + lvls... the farthest we have gone level by level was 9th and 8th lvl until now.... really hard to play from 1st to 20th lvl.
Also the political game is much harder for a DM to create and to manage... congratulations to the DMs who can manage it... I personally dont do a good job of creating politacally motivated adventures. After reading this thread I wish I could.
But its understandable why so many accuse high level of being munchkinistic... especially with characters made with the money recommended. Our 8th lvl characters are at least 20% - 40% behind the recommended Gold... and we didnt spend a lot of money on other stuff...
Anyone has good ideas how to fasttrack PCs to 20th lvl without allowing for too much customization ? Is it possible to play the characters and make them advance very fast in order to reach higher levels without their being munchkinised ?
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