Why do undead have poor Fort/good Will?

[Kerrick]

I'm involved in a discussion in GD about turning undead, and someone copied a post from another board wherein the poster proposed using Fort save vs. 10+ 1/2 cleric's level + Cha. I got curious, and I crunched some numbers, and I found that it could work. But along the way, I also started to wonder: why do undead have a poor Fort save and a good Will save?

Let's see:

Undead are, according to all sources, very hard to kill because they don't feel pain, are immune to injuries that would cripple/kill a living being, and are immune to poisons, diseases, etc. because they aren't technically alive.

Undead have no Con score - therefore, nothing to modify their Fort save.

Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects - why give them a high Will on top of it?

Undead are immune to all effects that require a Fort save, unless they work against objects. Now, this one is weird and, really, pointless - simply stating that a spell affects living creatures automatically excludes undead and therefore doesn't require that silly criterion.

Cure/inflict wounds spells were given a Will save simply because of the above rule (re: affecting undead), even though they're Necromancy, they affect life force, and they should have a Fort save. Even undead have "life force" - it's the negative energy that keeps them "alive" and moving around. Positive energy from a cure spell interferes with that aura, effectively "hurting" them, whlie negative energy boslters the aura, "healing" them.

Having a good Fort/poor Will would enable a usable turning mechanic. No more tables, no more being unable to turn an undead because its HD are too high. A simple turn check vs. the undead's Will save - simple, easy, and it fits with the rest of the system.

So why isn't it like this? Why did Wizards make undead the way they are? Can someone enlighten me?

 

[irdeggman]

Cure/inflict wounds spells were given a Will save simply because of the above rule (re: affecting undead), even though they're Necromancy, they affect life force, and they should have a Fort save. Even undead have "life force" - it's the negative energy that keeps them "alive" and moving around. Positive energy from a cure spell interferes with that aura, effectively "hurting" them, whlie negative energy boslters the aura, "healing" them.

In 3.5 (different than 2nd ed)

Cure spells are Conjuring (Healing) and Inflict are necromancy spells.

Basically cure spells focus divine (positive) energy.

 

[Victim]

Why do undead need a high Fort save if they're immune to almost all Fort effects anyway? And their lowish Fort (undead of a given CR tend to have more HD than normal creates, so their weak saves benefit) gives them an interesting weakness in that Disintegrate and the like are very effective against them.

 

[frankthedm]

Why do undead need a high Fort save if they're immune to almost all Fort effects anyway? And their lowish Fort (undead of a given CR tend to have more HD than normal creates, so their weak saves benefit) gives them an interesting weakness in that Disintegrate and the like are very effective against them.

A little too effective...

 

[B4cchus]

I can imagine undead have poor con saves becouse thier "structural integrity" isn't all that great.
Although they don't suffer much from specific damage (e.g. a poke in the gut), a ramshackle, half-decayed body isn't all that sturdy when it comes to things like disintergration.

 

[Joker]

A little too effective...

I'm just gonna throw out all the subtlety and understatement and say the spell disintigrate is too damn effective vs. undead. Which is why I generally give profane bonusses to their saves.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm just gonna throw out all the subtlety and understatement and say the spell disintigrate is too damn effective vs. undead. Which is why I generally give profane bonusses to their saves.

Why, for goodness sake? 3.5 made disintegrate relatively ineffective against everything else already! Give the spell a bone

 

[Aaron L]

Well, I can see a monster from beyond the grave having a strong Will save because it is relentless, fearless, and totally bent on its goals. Imagine Jason Vorhees. Dracula. Your typical ghost out for revenge on its killer.

And poor Fort saves? These things have no metabolism or operating biology. Quite often they are dessicated corpses loosely hung together. Or even whisps of ectoplasm. Even if they have a fully intact, nondecayed body, its still the ill-functining remains of a once living being held toogether by magical forces.

Fragile of body but strong of spirit fits the Undead pretty well.

As for the part about having every single spell say whether it affects only living creatures or undead as well, as opposed to one line in the undead description saying what types of spells it is immune too... well, seems like a pretty simple decision to me. Seriously, that complaint simply baffles me.

 

[Kerrick]

In 3.5 (different than 2nd ed)

Cure spells are Conjuring (Healing) and Inflict are necromancy spells.

Basically cure spells focus divine (positive) energy.

That's right. Some days I forget simple things like this. But (and this is a whole different issue) why are healing spells not Necromancy too? They "Manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force." (emphasis mine).

My point still stands, though - the Will save thing. Both types of spells manipulate life energy, either restoring it or taking it away - you'd think that would be a Fort save, right?

Although they don't suffer much from specific damage (e.g. a poke in the gut), a ramshackle, half-decayed body isn't all that sturdy when it comes to things like disintergration.

A living, healthy body isn't all that sturdy when it comes to things like disintegration either. Come on - that spell vaporizes everything.

As for the part about having every single spell say whether it affects only living creatures or undead as well, as opposed to one line in the undead description saying what types of spells it is immune too... well, seems like a pretty simple decision to me.

It's as simple as one word - living. Target: One living creature. Hell, a lot of spells already have it - blindness/deafness, for instance, or ghoul touch. And really, there aren't that many Fort-save spells that undead aren't already immune to - contagion? immune to disease. Finger of death? Immune to death effects. I did a quick skim through the PHB and found maybe half a dozen - haste (why can't this affect undead?), enlarge person, remove blindness/deafness (but since they're immune to the other spell, this is a moot point), flesh to stone (though it could be argued that this would work against undead since it's a transmutation effect), and a couple others.

 

[Kormydigar]

Why, for goodness sake? 3.5 made disintegrate relatively ineffective against everything else already! Give the spell a bone

Darn Skippy The disintigrate spell doesn't REALLY disintigrate anymore, so it might as well be useful at damaging undead.