Why do you love/hate Drizzt?

[Kae'Yoss]

Now gimme a One Eyed Orc and I'll show you true destruction.

DIE, DEPTH PERCEPTION!

Did Jarlaxle and Drizzt ever fight? I can't recall offhand (though my gut tells me that fight never came to be). That might be an interesting fight.

Nah. But I think it was hinted that Jarlaxle could actually give Drizzt the run for his money.

It ain't 'creative' or 'original' or 'fresh' if all you do is play 'the one exception,' yanno? There's only so many 'good assassins' or whatnot before it is also a cliche.

Of course, if you do it all the time, it gets stale, but it doesn't hurt to try it once.

Good drow aren't an exception anymore, though, at least not in the FR. There's Eilistraee and her followers, and I could even see some borderline CN/CG Vhaeraunans (generally a good guy who doesn't care for Eilistraee's nudist colonies where only women may become priests)

 

[slipstream76]

When I was younger I loved the first Drizzt novels (and I find them still amusing today...). I liked the special feel of the underdark and the drow plotting in their spider-infested cities. Icewinddale trilogy was still good if not as great as the first novels. But then it got worse. I dont know what got into RAS but the last novels were downright silly. The last book I read was the thousand orcs and I dont plan to continue the series. The two main reasons for me to dislike the latest novels:

1. sillyness of drizzt. For me it started when Cadderly wanted Drizzt not to give the evil artifact crenshinibon to anyone...never ever. Then Jarlaxle (or who was it) disguised as Cadderly demands the artifact from him and Drizzt (RPG stats: Int17 Wis17 bwahahaha) gives it to him. WTF? Why would he suddenly change his mind? Drizzt stems from a high magic race and illusions should be known to him. But RAS wanted to put even more emphasis on how stupid the drow ranger really is by not letting "Cadderly" heal one of his wounded friends with the most simple healing spell... "no....ehm....sorry, dude cannot do that right now, unfortunately I ran out of healing spells for today (me, the greatest cleric in all Faerun)....so sorry, NOW GIVE THAT ******* ARTIFACT TO ME!
That makes him look like the dumbest idiot ever IMO. But why? RAS normally does such a great job to present Drizzt to us as a learned and philospophic individual via the short starting paragraphs to each new chapter. That Cadderly/Jarlaxle encounter came to me like a punch in the face.

2. But even worse: the power atavism of Drizzt. With Wulfgar he went against the giants and icing death. He kicked Errtus ass. He survived so many perilous encounters that he has to be very high level up to now. His fighting skills are legendary. He bested the weaponmasters of the drow and did battly with Artemis Entreri for hours and hours while onlookers were dazzled by the speed and precision of their strokes.
But what now? He has serious problems to stand his ground against two orc scouts? Again: WTF? In "the thousand orcs" he tries to sneak up on two orc scouts barefooted and gets caught....!? Is every orc in Oboulds army at least a 18th level fighter? Good luck when fighting thousands of them.... Generally, I found a tendency in the novels that his battles gradually became harder while the enemies became weaker (at least measured by RPG standards...and nerds have to look for consistency with the RAW ;-)) But, seriously, that does not feel right for me. A Character like Raistlin becomes a god after so many novels...arent fighters allowed to become almost invincible at least? If Drizzt had his problems against dragons or the like noone would complain....but orcs? They are meant and desined to be low level fodder god dammit...! ;-)

Overall I came to like artemis and Jarlaxle much better. I think the sellsword trilogy was a very entertaining read. Good job there RAS! Maybe RAS became bored with Drizzt himself...

 

[Ipissimus]

I think it bears remembering the environment that Drizzt was created in before any judgement can be made on him.

The big cultural phenomenons that Drizzt tapped into as a character were racial intolerance and self-determination. Combatting raceism was in the news, at the movies and bandied about in high school classrooms. Bad guys were Nazis and Skinheads or connected to nazis and skinheads. While it still is to some extent, it's not as prevalent now than it was then.

The Drow were ready made to explore this theme in DnD. The physical difference of skin colour matching our own problems with raceism in the real world... though Drizzt has to bear the very real burden of his race really being pretty much evil.

On top of this was the other theme that Drizzt taps into: righteous disobedience. In some ways, this is a better theme for the current climate, the idea that there are times when you can only stand by the moral course of action through rebellion against society's mores.

Beyond that, Drizzt is the warrior/poet type. More depth of character simply wasn't needed because Drizzt was an exploration of theme over character. He wasn't so much about himself as the effect he caused on others and his feelings over how others percieved him and judged him simply from the colour of his skin.

Making him a kick-ass swashbuckling (though he has yet tp buckle a swash) warrior was added garnish for action fans and the whole duel-wielding thing a gimmick that caught our imaginations on fire.

People talk about Drizzt clones. Back when Drizzt came onto the scene, how many fighters used a longsword and shield? Practically all of them. How many wizards were Gandalf/Merlin clones with long white beards? Practically all of them. Back when Drizzt came onto the scene, nobody duel-wielded melee weapons, there either weren't any rules for it or they were tucked away in one paragraph in the 300 page rulebooks. Tumbling? Nobody TUMBLED in 1st edition, there weren't any rules for it, you just rolled the dice and saw where it landed.

The novels back then pushed their characters far beyond what 1st edition was capable of portreying. Alot of people read those pulp-style action novels and said to themselves 'I want to do that', so they did. Now, thanks in part to Drizzt, we have the 3rd edition skill/feat toolsets and our characters can actually do the things Drizzt did and more, so he doesn't quite have that WOW factor anymore. He doesn't even have that raceism factor since everyone now knows about the good drow hero and the Elistreeans.

I find it interesting that people liken the Drizzt novels to Star Wars since I really do think that both stories are now culturally out of context. Star Wars, particularly the new ones, are the wet dream of someone who grew up with 50's space operas and didn't bother to update it for a more modern, more sophisticated, audience. Drizzt is suffering the same problem, we've all seen Once Upon A Time In China, The Matrix and Crouching Tiger, acrobatic fight scenes no longer have the wow factor. Our own characters are all better now than Drizzt ever was... so there goes his two big draw cards.

R.A. Salvator has the momentous task of updating Drizzt for the new age, I don't envy him. Heck, I don't think it's even possible.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Now, to be fair - I will preface this by saying that I never read The Crystal Shard until 2001 and then I only read it to find out what all of the fandom was about. That said:

What I think of when I think of Drizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz *wakes up*

Oh, sorry - dozed off there.

It's been a few years since I read it, but what I recall is that Drizzt wasn't the main character of the book. Much of the book was told through his eyes but he wasn't really the lead. Being a supporting cast member is fine for someone who struck me as only being a cliche attached to a cliche and wrapped up in a cliche. These characters will bore me to tears if they become the central character. That is what Drizzt has become. He became so popular a character (because he was a mystery and filled with angst) that he was essentailly forced to become a lead. I just didn't find him interesting enough to fill umpteen zillion books by himself. He should have stayed a supporting character.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Welcome to the boards, slipstream76.

We can credit Drizzt with at least that: He gets more people to post on ENWorld

When I was younger I loved the first Drizzt novels (and I find them still amusing today...). I liked the special feel of the underdark and the drow plotting in their spider-infested cities. Icewinddale trilogy was still good if not as great as the first novels.

Trivia Time: While the Dark Elf Trilogy (Homeland, Exile, Sojourn) are more or less the beginning of the Drizzt story, they weren't the first books written: The Icewind Dale Trilogy came first! In fact, The Crystal Shard was the second FR novel ever - only Darkwalker on Moonshae came before! And since the Moonshae books didn't show too much of the Realms, you could say that the Crystal Shard was the first "proper" FR novel.

Also note that Drizzt wasn't the first choice for the leading role: It actually was supposed to be about Wulfgar at first. But Bob wanted to put some of the stuff from Darkwalker in there (which he had read before/while writing Crystal Shard), to tie his story into the new game world. The sample chapter that won him his bid for a FR novel was about Daryth and his moorhound Canthus. Only later he changed that into the Drow/Panther combo we all know today.

1. sillyness of drizzt. For me it started when Cadderly wanted Drizzt not to give the evil artifact crenshinibon to anyone...never ever. Then Jarlaxle (or who was it) disguised as Cadderly demands the artifact from him and Drizzt (RPG stats: Int17 Wis17 bwahahaha) gives it to him. WTF? Why would he suddenly change his mind? Drizzt stems from a high magic race and illusions should be known to him. But RAS wanted to put even more emphasis on how stupid the drow ranger really is by not letting "Cadderly" heal one of his wounded friends with the most simple healing spell... "no....ehm....sorry, dude cannot do that right now, unfortunately I ran out of healing spells for today (me, the greatest cleric in all Faerun)....so sorry, NOW GIVE THAT ******* ARTIFACT TO ME!

All I say to that: Bluff check

Again: WTF? In "the thousand orcs" he tries to sneak up on two orc scouts barefooted and gets caught....!? Is every orc in Oboulds army at least a 18th level fighter?

Just bad luck. You play D&D, you know how it is. I know I have had my share of rotten rolls lately (and about 5 other guys' shares to boot). So my DDM Marilith is standing right next to some mook, gets 6 attacks with a very decent attack bonus, but still only gets to beat him half to death (he and 2-3 of his buddies should be kebab). And there were a couple of gaming sessions when I was looked at funny when I only rolled init checks like 20-25. "Great rolls" you think? Not so, with an Init Bonus of 18. Kye's probably one of the fastest mortals on and under Faerûn if it comes to spring into action, and still he got outperformed by clumsy pit fiends (and I think even a dragon once).

but orcs? They are meant and desined to be low level fodder god dammit...! ;-)

There we agree on. Well, later this year, Drizzt will get his next novel, "The Orc King", and will hopefully start tearing down the Kingdom Many Arrows.

 

[Shade]

I enjoyed the books, and still pick up the new ones, although I haven't enjoyed the later ones as much as the first few trilogies. I like the character and thought he was a breath of fresh air when he first appeared.

 

[werk]

At the time he was new, unique and thus fun. Now he is a cliche'. Waaaay too many players insist on playing a drow ranger with two swords. yaaaaawn.

So many so that it is now the class archetype.

Before 3e (post Drizzt) where were rangers these natural dual-weilders?

Strider - nope
Balinor - nope
Tanis - nope

 

[Thad Enouf]

Love and hate are such strong terms, especially regarding fictional characters. I have no feelings against Drizzt one way or the other. I do, however, have some minor issues with Salvatore's writing but that's just the editor in me talking.

I wish I had Drizzt's stats with me from the FR campaign guide. I know he's not just a ranger but my books are elsewhere, of course.

He may be a bit of a cliche to seasoned RPGers but there is a vast audience yet to explore the Realms and for that, Drizzt will always have a purpose...at least from a marketing perspective.

But how many writers around here feel they could do better when they read the books? I'll bet I'm not the only one. IMHO, some fantasy writing really needs a kick in the codpiece to bring it to a modern, somewhat jaded, audience.

 

[slipstream76]

Just bad luck. You play D&D, you know how it is. I know I have had my share of rotten rolls lately (and about 5 other guys' shares to boot). So my DDM Marilith is standing right next to some mook, gets 6 attacks with a very decent attack bonus, but still only gets to beat him half to death (he and 2-3 of his buddies should be kebab). And there were a couple of gaming sessions when I was looked at funny when I only rolled init checks like 20-25. "Great rolls" you think? Not so, with an Init Bonus of 18. Kye's probably one of the fastest mortals on and under Faerûn if it comes to spring into action, and still he got outperformed by clumsy pit fiends (and I think even a dragon once).

First of all - and I think I remember you said so yourself in one of your posts - this is supposed to be a novel, in which the author should enjoy a healthy portion of literary freedom, and not a recorded D&D session. And why would he use this artistic freedom to make the hero look like an idiot...?

Secondly, even when trying to apply the D&D rules to it, it would not work out. Since crits and fumbles do not apply to skill checks as per RAW, it would have been VERY HARD if not impossible for the orcs to make their listen checks!
A "normal" orc has listen +1, I dont know the move silently check for Drizzt who should be an epic character by now... +20 something?

Trivia Time: While the Dark Elf Trilogy (Homeland, Exile, Sojourn) are more or less the beginning of the Drizzt story, they weren't the first books written: The Icewind Dale Trilogy came first! In fact, The Crystal Shard was the second FR novel ever - only Darkwalker on Moonshae came before! And since the Moonshae books didn't show too much of the Realms, you could say that the Crystal Shard was the first "proper" FR novel.

Also note that Drizzt wasn't the first choice for the leading role: It actually was supposed to be about Wulfgar at first. But Bob wanted to put some of the stuff from Darkwalker in there (which he had read before/while writing Crystal Shard), to tie his story into the new game world. The sample chapter that won him his bid for a FR novel was about Daryth and his moorhound Canthus. Only later he changed that into the Drow/Panther combo we all know today.

thats very interesting indeed. Thx for the info Kay.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Love and hate are such strong terms, especially regarding fictional characters.

I agree. Still, it clearly applies to some cases about Drizzt.

But how many writers around here feel they could do better when they read the books? I'll bet I'm not the only one. IMHO, some fantasy writing really needs a kick in the codpiece to bring it to a modern, somewhat jaded, audience.

I don't know. I know I probably couldn't do better, but I'm not a writer. What I do know is that those books seem to sell pretty well, or they wouldn't make/let him do so many of them.

That means that a lot of people like the writing as is. I don't say that R.A.S. shouldn't try to improve himself (we all should never stop improving ourselves - the day we stop to get better we stop being good), but it seems to work.

First of all - and I think I remember you said so yourself in one of your posts - this is supposed to be a novel, in which the author should enjoy a healthy portion of literary freedom, and not a recorded D&D session. And why would he use this artistic freedom to make the hero look like an idiot...?

I know, the examples were half in jest. They do illustrate one thing, though: Bad luck. In D&D sessions, it manifests as rotten rolls. In a novel, it manifests as - well, bad luck. I guess Drizzt had just rotten luck in that moment, or the orc had good luck (all a matter of perspective).

Secondly, even when trying to apply the D&D rules to it, it would not work out. Since crits and fumbles do not apply to skill checks as per RAW, it would have been VERY HARD if not impossible for the orcs to make their listen checks!
A "normal" orc has listen +1, I dont know the move silently check for Drizzt who should be an epic character by now... +20 something?

Hide +17 and Move Silently +19 (according to the RPG stats from his DDM stat card. He's Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5). So he could roll Hide 18 or Move Silently 20.

The orc might have been an expert or rogue (him being a scout for a sizable army - I guess you can expect some specialization there), and a bit higher than first level, and things like +7 on spot and listen aren't that far out. So it's not that unlikely that he could spot or hear Drizzt. Like I said: bad luck happens!