D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[BryonD]

[*]Crit rules - terrible. They do not differentiate weapons from each other and as a result, the weapons list is compressed yet again because of insufficient differentiators. If running the game I would use 3.5 crit values and balance be damned.

Agreed. I've been using the 3.5 version of crits from day 1 and it is working great.

[*]Feats - should be a mandatory, base part of the system and much more extensive.

I'm not much on the word "mandatory", but they are certainly a no-brainer for my own game.
I'm very underwhelmed by the available selection.

But, it isn't too hard to look at PF/3X feats and merge a few or bump them to match 5E

[*]Armor - Amazingly, worse than the 3.X list, easily the worst part of that system, with a total failure to give any reason to use more than a few options. DEX minimums need a complete revision with scaling within types, chain shirt needs moved to light, bare minimum. Armor charts might seem like an unimportant thing, but since lots of characters wear armor the "mithril breastplate or GTFO" of 3.X got old a long time ago.

I'm retooling a lot of pieces for my next campaign and armor will be part of that. But I don't think it needs much, it is pretty close as-is.

[*]Magic items - DMG list is unusable. Magic items are expected to be far fewer (unacceptable) and far less powerful (unacceptable). D&D has always been a system where magical items were important. Customized items are basically gone, and some iconic items like the Frost Brand are essentially gutted. This is the biggest thing that would mitigate against playing in this system as opposed to running it - the fear that a DM might actually use this train wreck. D&D should not attempt to duplicate fantasy where magical items were rare or nonexistent; lots of items are not optional. The DMG was a total waste of money for that alone.

I've certainly shared a but of this, but in my case it has simply served as a muse to create new things that fit the system.

[*]Saving throws - lol.

Note sure what you are getting at here.
I like the system.

The player base is also still way too concerned with "unbalanced" options. Balance is YOUR job. It's not the systems job. Players need to quit shoving their job off onto the game designer. You know what your group wants, he doesn't.

Their seems to be a culture of "the game should do everything by itself and still be as good as a game where a good DM is facilitating". I got no solutions for this. I just ignore it, pick the best game available and worry about my own table.

 

[Marshall]

Understood. But you seem to not grasp that when you frame it as a function of character level, the implication that it will continue to be a function of character level is present.

Its not and never has been a function of CHARACTER level. Its a function of CHALLENGE level.

Challenges dont scale just because the Characters do and its assumed that when you DO scale challenges you change the fiction to align with the new challenge level.

The only difference with the way 4e handles it vs EVERY OTHER EDITION is that when 4e says its a 14th level challenge it really is appropriate for 14th level characters.

 

[BryonD]

Its not and never has been a function of CHARACTER level. Its a function of CHALLENGE level.

Challenges dont scale just because the Characters do and its assumed that when you DO scale challenges you change the fiction to align with the new challenge level.

The only difference with the way 4e handles it vs EVERY OTHER EDITION is that when 4e says its a 14th level challenge it really is appropriate for 14th level characters.

First, this is just word games. But that aside:

Read my quote: "when you frame it as a function of character level". now go back and read what I replied to.

Thanks

 

[Imaro]

Its not and never has been a function of CHARACTER level. Its a function of CHALLENGE level.

Challenges dont scale just because the Characters do and its assumed that when you DO scale challenges you change the fiction to align with the new challenge level.

The only difference with the way 4e handles it vs EVERY OTHER EDITION is that when 4e says its a 14th level challenge it really is appropriate for 14th level characters.

From the Rules Compendium...

"When choosing a DC from the table, the Dungeon Master should use the level of the creature performing the check unless otherwise noted."

That seems to point towards character level not challenge level...

 

[tyrlaan]

The player base is also still way too concerned with "unbalanced" options. Balance is YOUR job. It's not the systems job. Players need to quit shoving their job off onto the game designer. You know what your group wants, he doesn't.

So then releasing a game that says something like... "Class A deals 1 damage all 20 levels. Class B deals 1,000 damage at 1st level +1,000 each additional level all the way to 20th level." is acceptable because balance is the job of the GM and not the system?

Or is your commentary missing some qualifiers?

I also don't understand how the designer(s) of a game would somehow not be qualified to do this (assuming I'm reading your comments at face value correctly and they are not hyperbole). I kind of feel like that's saying it's the readers' job to edit the novel they read.

Their seems to be a culture of "the game should do everything by itself and still be as good as a game where a good DM is facilitating". I got no solutions for this. I just ignore it, pick the best game available and worry about my own table.

I won't speak for the culture, just myself. To me, I think it's very reasonable to expect a game to be designed with a general level of balance. I am not going to freak out over an overpowered feat, but I want the chassis to be balanced.

 

[Hussar]

From the Rules Compendium...

"When choosing a DC from the table, the Dungeon Master should use the level of the creature performing the check unless otherwise noted."

That seems to point towards character level not challenge level...

Not really because the adventures are designed for a level range. If you're in a 14th level adventure, then the PC's will be (around) 14th level and the DC's will suit that level of character. Picking and choosing single lines out of thousands of lines of text is just not helpful. The whole point of choosing DC's is to choose the one that best suits whatever you're trying to do at that time.

This is one of the biggest problems with discussing 4e. The lack of context. People look at single lines and then miss the forest.

From the introduction to Skill Challenges:

More so than perhaps any kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context within an adventure... A skill challenge ... is directly related to the particular adventure and campaign it is set in.

Set a level for the challenge and the DC's for the checks involved. As a starting point (underline mine) set the level of the challenge to the level of the party. (the section then continues on how to vary that level with the DC's)

Further on, the advice for traps and hazards are that a trap or a hazard replaces a monster in an encounter. Whatever the XP budget that the DM decides for that encounter determines the potential level ranges (or at least the maximum ceiling) of a particular trap or hazard. Again, this is based entirely on the level of the adventure, not the level of the PC's in that adventure.

Like so many of the issues that people bring up about 4e, it's more about presentation that substance. "Oh, DC's are based on PC level because one chart uses that as a header". It's so frustrating because even a casual actual reading of the DMG disproves all of this.

 

[Imaro]

Not really because the adventures are designed for a level range. If you're in a 14th level adventure, then the PC's will be (around) 14th level and the DC's will suit that level of character. Picking and choosing single lines out of thousands of lines of text is just not helpful. The whole point of choosing DC's is to choose the one that best suits whatever you're trying to do at that time.

This is one of the biggest problems with discussing 4e. The lack of context. People look at single lines and then miss the forest.

From the introduction to Skill Challenges:





Further on, the advice for traps and hazards are that a trap or a hazard replaces a monster in an encounter. Whatever the XP budget that the DM decides for that encounter determines the potential level ranges (or at least the maximum ceiling) of a particular trap or hazard. Again, this is based entirely on the level of the adventure, not the level of the PC's in that adventure.

Like so many of the issues that people bring up about 4e, it's more about presentation that substance. "Oh, DC's are based on PC level because one chart uses that as a header". It's so frustrating because even a casual actual reading of the DMG disproves all of this.

I wasn't discussing pre-made adventures or Skill Challenges... which are different things than a DM determining a check for a DC...

EDIT: And I disagree with your assertion about reading the DMG... I have said it before and I'll say it again... IMO, it creates a convoluted and incoherent picture of how one is supposed to go about assigning DC's... Some are objective (locks)... some are based on character level (improv DC for climbing the mountain before you... but make sure the fiction of this particular mountain matches the DC) and some are based on neither (SC's I'm looking at you do we even know what fiction ties into what level for these?).

EDIT 2: Though ultimately throughout the DMG using character level to set DC's...set SC levels, create encounters, etc. keeps popping up.

 

[Ashkelon]

Never underestimate the power of willful ignorance by those who neither read the rules nor played the game.

 

[Imaro]

Never underestimate the power of willful ignorance by those who neither read the rules nor played the game.

And never underestimate the power of willful ignorance by those who favor something and aren't willing to admit or see it's flaws...


EDIT: I'm finding this whole conversation kind of borderline absurd at this point... are people honestly arguing that 4e's default procedure, advice, etc. don't push the DM to assign DC's by character level... is that really the argument? If that's the case what does one use to assign DC's then?

 

[Hussar]

Yes that is exactly what's being argued. Difficulty of a challenge is set by the adventure which is designed for a particular level of PC's. Same as it has always been. I actually quoted chapter and verse in the DMG for it.

You have an entire section devoted to traps and hazards set by challenge rating. A trap doesn't change by PC level. You simply choose traps that fulfill a particular level of challenge that tge DM wants to use.

How is this any different? The only difference I see is the level of transparency.