D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[robus]

3.5: Theoretically possible but first you have to know if there is already a feat which can do this specifically and, if there is, then not just anyone can try it without the feat as that would be stepping on the toes of players who chose that feat. But, if there is not a feat, then the complexity of the jump rules, acrobatics rules, movement rules as they combine with acrobatics, attack to kick the barrels, check barrel weight and barrel hardness and material breaking rules, oil splash pattern to strike the fire, fire damage and spread, etc.. All that is just a lot of rules to look up, and most players would probably get bugged you're not just attacking with your bow and multiple attacks and known set of attack and damage routines from your character sheet.

If that doesn't scare people aware from 3.5 I don't know what will!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The background section is a waste of effort, thats what I'm trying to get at, it takes up 15 pages on describing backgrounds. Short mechanics explanation + 1-2 pages of examples and done. That way, more work could have been put into other parts of the book...like the ranger for instance, or Class Labels for spell description.

Yea, but the backgrounds are even more rigid. 1 background has 2 fixed skills, while you can CHOOSE class skills, from a set list.

Well 3.5 had, class variants, racial substitution, alternate base classes and prestige classes, and you could multi-class freely (no attribute restriction). Tons of feats (yea most of them are useless) and templates for your race.
But the main thing for me is, you could customize your skill distribution after character creation.

Never say that any other edition had more customization then 3.5. Only PF has more, if we count it as 3.X Edition.

4e and 5e have more customization than 3.5. Especially 4e. By far. By such a wide margin that it’s preposterous to even compare them. More feats per character, addition of themes, backgrounds, paragon paths, and epic destinies, and then of course, Powers, rituals, and martial practices.

No other dnd, including PF, even comes close to the amount of customization, at creation and at later levels, as 4e.

5e has just as much front loaded customization as 3.5, and has the option of either less or more customization as you level, compared to most 3.5 classes. A warlock has a ton of customization, more than any core 3.5 class, while a champion fighter has rather little.

most of what you list is front loaded stuff you pick at level 1.

5e backgrounds are entirely non-rigid. The skills are 100% suggestions. You can, without any DM review beyond the normal DM right to veto legal options, just create a “variant” background with 2 skills, and 2 of languages or tools, and a feature+starting gear either chosen from the existing backgrounds or worked out with your DM.

 

[Warpiglet]

4e and 5e have more customization than 3.5. Especially 4e. By far. By such a wide margin that it’s preposterous to even compare them. More feats per character, addition of themes, backgrounds, paragon paths, and epic destinies, and then of course, Powers, rituals, and martial practices.

No other dnd, including PF, even comes close to the amount of customization, at creation and at later levels, as 4e.

5e has just as much front loaded customization as 3.5, and has the option of either less or more customization as you level, compared to most 3.5 classes. A warlock has a ton of customization, more than any core 3.5 class, while a champion fighter has rather little.

most of what you list is front loaded stuff you pick at level 1.

5e backgrounds are entirely non-rigid. The skills are 100% suggestions. You can, without any DM review beyond the normal DM right to veto legal options, just create a “variant” background with 2 skills, and 2 of languages or tools, and a feature+starting gear either chosen from the existing backgrounds or worked out with your DM.

I so agree with the assertion about backgrounds. First 5e character was of course a warlock. Took the feature for nobles but different background. Voila! The Warlock suddenly has three noncombatant followers that light candles and help him with ceremonies. They are creepy and come and go and have not effect on power. My aim was to make a sort of burgeoning cult leader trying to bring an entity to the prime material plane and three creepy elven maidens appear to put his armor on him and help him with magic.

They retainers come and go but damn if they don't give some fun flavor. Granted this noble feature was originally for squires and knight attendants, but a reskinning did nothing to the game other than make it cooler.

If that is not flexible, I don't know what is.

 

[Warpiglet]

4e and 5e have more customization than 3.5. Especially 4e. By far. By such a wide margin that it’s preposterous to even compare them. More feats per character, addition of themes, backgrounds, paragon paths, and epic destinies, and then of course, Powers, rituals, and martial practices.

No other dnd, including PF, even comes close to the amount of customization, at creation and at later levels, as 4e.

5e has just as much front loaded customization as 3.5, and has the option of either less or more customization as you level, compared to most 3.5 classes. A warlock has a ton of customization, more than any core 3.5 class, while a champion fighter has rather little.

most of what you list is front loaded stuff you pick at level 1.

5e backgrounds are entirely non-rigid. The skills are 100% suggestions. You can, without any DM review beyond the normal DM right to veto legal options, just create a “variant” background with 2 skills, and 2 of languages or tools, and a feature+starting gear either chosen from the existing backgrounds or worked out with your DM.

For real. Go crazy. Get weird. Pick a well known fantasy figure you like and ask the people on EnWorld to stat it up. Perhaps you will get different class/background suggestions...but some of them will hit home for someone with an open mind.

I would say that total granularity in bonuses does not itself add to the overall feel of things.

Case 1: tough warrior with three attacks at +4 or an attacks at (I can't remember how it goes! +11, +6, +1). Does the added variable do anything of value?

Case 2: All skills go up by 1 at 5th level or: add two points to this skill and one point to this skill and one point to this one. Did you make a real appreciable difference in modeling your archetype? "well, Gandalf knew a bunch about religion and history, but I really wish he could only go up one point in religion but two in history...this game is so static!" Said no one...most hopefully because they made a character COOLER than Gandalf

 

[Satyrn]

...most hopefully because they made a character COOLER than Gandalf

My character is way cooler than Gandalf. I'm playing Magneto.

 

[Warpiglet]

My character is way cooler than Gandalf. I'm playing Magneto.

Nice! I had one attempt at a Darth Vader wannabe...was taking EB with repelling blast but planned for the beams to be invisible. Now with the grasping invocation you could do even more! Also planned to have dagger or shortword with green flame blade when things got too close! Ya know, like a lightsaber...

 

[Satyrn]

Nice! I had one attempt at a Darth Vader wannabe...was taking EB with repelling blast but planned for the beams to be invisible. Now with the grasping invocation you could do even more! Also planned to have dagger or shortword with green flame blade when things got too close! Ya know, like a lightsaber...

. . . I have to confess, I lied.

I was just going for an implied "it's still just Ian McKellen as a different sort of wizard" joke.

 

[Satyrn]

But now I want to play Darth Vader.

 

[Warpiglet]

But now I want to play Darth Vader.

I only got him to third level before the campaign changed! It was a fun idea for inspiration. By all means! Get inspired by the Sith and make your warlock creepy!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yea I have seen that idea in a Hungarian RPG of all things (M.A.G.U.S.). Using the d20 system, your first 4 levels are chosen from the NPC classes, commoner, expert, noble, warrior and adept. Then for 5th level you can actually choose you 1st PC class level (if you meet the requirement, kind of like for prestige classes).

That and now that you mention it, the Weapon Proficiency is missing from the Soldier Background.

Ugh! So I have slog around for a pretty long time before I even get ANY of my character concept! That was a big issue with 3.x (I'm not sure exactly how PF deals with it, never played it). 4e is a huge win here. A level 1 Ranger is a RANGER, not some guy that just has a bow and light armor. 5e went backwards here, though admittedly levels 1 and 2 are pretty trivial.