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D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

guachi

Adventurer
The complaints about fighters lacking skills is one reason I raved about the Fighter:Scout when it appeared in UA. I don't often fill out those WotC feedback forms but I did with this one.

They eventually gave the Scout to the Rogue, probably the one class that doesn't need even MOAR skills.
 

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Erechel

Explorer
Fact is, you don't sacrifice nothing for having other feats or for diversity. Out of 7 subclasses, 5 gain extra skills or tools: Cavaliers, samurais, battlemasters, bannerets and arcane archers at 3rd level. Besides, you don't sacrifice your fighting prowess for feats like Prodigy: just the opposite. Both Athletics and Stealth expertise make you stronger in and out of fights, something you conveniently forget. And fighters have already the strongest combat baseline without sacrifice. At 6th level they can gain anything they want: choosing between further increasing their combat edge (something already there, baked in the class), or something completely unrelated to combat (like Skilled or Ritual Caster). Or something in between (like actually improve their stats).

Bannerets have both an additional proficiency and expertise in Persuasion at 7th level. Champions gain half proficiency in anything physical, rounded up (unless bards, who get in any skill, but rounded down). Samurai can change Charisma checks for Wisdom, EKs gain spells for free, and they get to use them both in combat and outside it. Etc.

Besides this, this is a pointless exercise. I believe that your mind is fixed in one idea, and no matter the actual evidence, you are going to discard it as irrelevant.
 

pemerton

Legend
I am our group’s DM most of the time, but I’m new to the hobby (senior in high school, started playing as an 8th grader, never had the opportunity to play under an experienced DM) and it’s been hard to create encounters that are interesting, different, and provide everyone a good opportunity to contribute in a meaningful way.
If I play disallowing metagame social skills, the Bards/Sorcs/Warlocks are the only ones who get to do stuff; and if I allow out of game social skills to influence events, the most charismatic player hogs screentime.

I’ve looked online for advice on how to make the game more interesting in and out of combat (phb and dmg are kinda worthless at giving DM advice) but the responses that I’ve gotten have been:
A lot of those responses seem aimed at a very GM-driven, "follow-the-bread-crumbs" style of play. If you're interested in talking about more player-driven play there are posters on these boards who can talk about that (me, [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION], [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and others). The best place to start a thread on that would be in General RPG, as a lot of the relevant techniques are not 5e-specific.
 

pemerton

Legend
Since not everyone can contribute to a Social or Exploration scene
Tackling this in some fashion seems pretty important. There's probably some stuff you can do as GM on the framing side of things; and also stuff that can be looked at on the resolution side too. "Fail forward" resolution in particular - it's a bit tricky in 5e because so much action resolution involves spells, but it can probably be used for ability check/skill check resolution.

("Fail forward" is often misconceived as "partial success" or "success at a cost". I'm meaning something a bit different from that - a new thread would be a better place to discuss in detail if you're interested.)

How do I make the Fighter useful?
To some extent that's up to the player, provided you're doing your job as GM! But in terms of providing "entry points", is there anything useful to be found in his/her background?
 

Josiah Stoll

First Post
...("Fail forward" is often misconceived as "partial success" or "success at a cost". I'm meaning something a bit different from that - a new thread would be a better place to discuss in detail if you're interested.)

I would love to be a part of that. I’m on mobile, so you’ll need to start the thread, I think.
To some extent that's up to the player, provided you're doing your job as GM! But in terms of providing "entry points", is there anything useful to be found in his/her background?

I don’t have the character sheet on me. Is there anything that I should advise players to think about when it comes to backgrounds?
 




crassballs

First Post
I just got back into it and what a disappointment. I bought the players manual, Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual for about $150 and honestly felt I wasted my money. All 3 were the most poorly written load of crap. The info is scattered everywhere to the point it is hard to find anything without flipping back and forth all over the place and often times between all 3 books. Info that should be in the Dungeon masters book is in the player book when it should be in both. Basic monsters in the back of the player manual but the DM manual only has lists of what monsters belong in what terrain. The monster manual only has a hand full of lvl 1 monsters in it and most of those are things nobody would want to fight. Instead of putting them in alphabetical order which is almost useless how about putting them from lowest to highest level in terms of toughness. May as well start a character at lvl 5. Basically it was set up to make you buy all 3 books whether you wanted too or not. They are disorganized and often unclear in areas or at the very least confusing. I really miss the BECMI version.
Spells suck. Too many of them are the same for multiple classes so what makes a druids spells much different from a mage's, ranger's, sorcerer or pally? How many classes get Thunderwave, Goodberry burning hands the list of repeats goes on and on. How droll that the pally or priest you're running with can cast half the same spells that you can? Suddenly your character isn't so special. Then there is the "utilitarian" spells which are virtually useless except for in the most specific circumstances where they might...Maybe come in handy and that's a pretty big maybe. Dungeons are practically non existent since you can't hardly put one monster in a dungeon that won't fight the rest of the monsters in the dungeon. It's all about campaign until your character is maxed then dump him and start and new character and repeat. I may as well go play a video game over and over or just tell a story to someone else as I make up the adventure in my head as I tell it. There are so many short cuts to make the game go faster anyway that I don't know how people haven't gotten bored playing. I mean you only create a new character to then cast most of the same spells, extra attack, same monsters in a different order that you had with the last character even though this time you chose a completely different race, class and background. I think E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson would be disappointed that their masterpiece Idea has been so watered down to this pathetic, slapped together mess. It astounds me that 175,000 fans of DnD thought this was good. The game use to be unique. Each character class had their own spells unique to them, utilitarian spells were actually useful, certain classes used certain weapons that other classes couldn't, you could run dungeons, campaigns, mass battles, build castles, level 35 and spend hours having a ball with friends and your character took on a life of his own that was unique because he wasn't like the other classes in any way other than he was on the same adventure. Now it's a rinse and repeat. Pretty pictures, figurines and watered down characters. Don't forget to buy the next pre-made campaign to spice up you next adventure though. Don't get me all wrong though as there have been some relatively small improvements (the only one that actually comes to mind is the death saving throws to become stable) but other than the one I mentioned I can't think of any off the top of my head because of the prominent list of things that suck with this version far out number the good. I could go on and on even more than I already have but these are the ones that irritate me the most and immediately come to mind. As a matter of fact the only reason I play is because my son is getting into it and it is quality time with him. I hope he loses interest quickly so I don't have to be tortured to play for long and I'll likely never pick it up again.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I just got back into it and what a disappointment. I bought the players manual, Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual for about $150 and honestly felt I wasted my money. All 3 were the most poorly written load of crap. The info is scattered everywhere to the point it is hard to find anything without flipping back and forth all over the place and often times between all 3 books. Info that should be in the Dungeon masters book is in the player book when it should be in both. Basic monsters in the back of the player manual but the DM manual only has lists of what monsters belong in what terrain. The monster manual only has a hand full of lvl 1 monsters in it and most of those are things nobody would want to fight. Instead of putting them in alphabetical order which is almost useless how about putting them from lowest to highest level in terms of toughness. May as well start a character at lvl 5. Basically it was set up to make you buy all 3 books whether you wanted too or not. They are disorganized and often unclear in areas or at the very least confusing. I really miss the BECMI version.
Spells suck. Too many of them are the same for multiple classes so what makes a druids spells much different from a mage's, ranger's, sorcerer or pally? How many classes get Thunderwave, Goodberry burning hands the list of repeats goes on and on. How droll that the pally or priest you're running with can cast half the same spells that you can? Suddenly your character isn't so special. Then there is the "utilitarian" spells which are virtually useless except for in the most specific circumstances where they might...Maybe come in handy and that's a pretty big maybe. Dungeons are practically non existent since you can't hardly put one monster in a dungeon that won't fight the rest of the monsters in the dungeon. It's all about campaign until your character is maxed then dump him and start and new character and repeat. I may as well go play a video game over and over or just tell a story to someone else as I make up the adventure in my head as I tell it. There are so many short cuts to make the game go faster anyway that I don't know how people haven't gotten bored playing. I mean you only create a new character to then cast most of the same spells, extra attack, same monsters in a different order that you had with the last character even though this time you chose a completely different race, class and background. I think E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson would be disappointed that their masterpiece Idea has been so watered down to this pathetic, slapped together mess. It astounds me that 175,000 fans of DnD thought this was good. The game use to be unique. Each character class had their own spells unique to them, utilitarian spells were actually useful, certain classes used certain weapons that other classes couldn't, you could run dungeons, campaigns, mass battles, build castles, level 35 and spend hours having a ball with friends and your character took on a life of his own that was unique because he wasn't like the other classes in any way other than he was on the same adventure. Now it's a rinse and repeat. Pretty pictures, figurines and watered down characters. Don't forget to buy the next pre-made campaign to spice up you next adventure though. Don't get me all wrong though as there have been some relatively small improvements (the only one that actually comes to mind is the death saving throws to become stable) but other than the one I mentioned I can't think of any off the top of my head because of the prominent list of things that suck with this version far out number the good. I could go on and on even more than I already have but these are the ones that irritate me the most and immediately come to mind. As a matter of fact the only reason I play is because my son is getting into it and it is quality time with him. I hope he loses interest quickly so I don't have to be tortured to play for long and I'll likely never pick it up again.

Tell us how you really feel. Thank you for your feedback.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
All 3 were the most poorly written load of crap. The info is scattered everywhere to the point it is hard to find anything without flipping back and forth all over the place and often times between all 3 books. Info that should be in the Dungeon masters book is in the player book when it should be in both. Basic monsters in the back of the player manual but the DM manual only has lists of what monsters belong in what terrain. The monster manual only has a hand full of lvl 1 monsters in it and most of those are things nobody would want to fight. Instead of putting them in alphabetical order which is almost useless how about putting them from lowest to highest level in terms of toughness. May as well start a character at lvl 5. Basically it was set up to make you buy all 3 books whether you wanted too or not. They are disorganized and often unclear in areas or at the very least confusing. I really miss the BECMI version.

Absolutely agree on the books and their layout. Very hard to navigate for folks new to the game.

I think you have some other good points but it’s sad that your final verdict is so down, especially as it’s something you were excited to share with the next generation. Perhaps return those books (if you can?), pick up the Starter Set and just run through that adventure with your son. While it might not be your cup of tea, it might foster an appreciation of the game in him and you can then encourage him to start a game with his friends and leave you to reminisce in peace? :D

Good luck.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I just got back into it and what a disappointment. I bought the players manual, Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual for about $150 and honestly felt I wasted my money. All 3 were the most poorly written load of crap. The info is scattered everywhere to the point it is hard to find anything without flipping back and forth all over the place and often times between all 3 books. Info that should be in the Dungeon masters book is in the player book when it should be in both. Basic monsters in the back of the player manual but the DM manual only has lists of what monsters belong in what terrain. The monster manual only has a hand full of lvl 1 monsters in it and most of those are things nobody would want to fight. Instead of putting them in alphabetical order which is almost useless how about putting them from lowest to highest level in terms of toughness. May as well start a character at lvl 5. Basically it was set up to make you buy all 3 books whether you wanted too or not. They are disorganized and often unclear in areas or at the very least confusing. I really miss the BECMI version.
Spells suck. Too many of them are the same for multiple classes so what makes a druids spells much different from a mage's, ranger's, sorcerer or pally? How many classes get Thunderwave, Goodberry burning hands the list of repeats goes on and on. How droll that the pally or priest you're running with can cast half the same spells that you can? Suddenly your character isn't so special. Then there is the "utilitarian" spells which are virtually useless except for in the most specific circumstances where they might...Maybe come in handy and that's a pretty big maybe. Dungeons are practically non existent since you can't hardly put one monster in a dungeon that won't fight the rest of the monsters in the dungeon. It's all about campaign until your character is maxed then dump him and start and new character and repeat. I may as well go play a video game over and over or just tell a story to someone else as I make up the adventure in my head as I tell it. There are so many short cuts to make the game go faster anyway that I don't know how people haven't gotten bored playing. I mean you only create a new character to then cast most of the same spells, extra attack, same monsters in a different order that you had with the last character even though this time you chose a completely different race, class and background. I think E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson would be disappointed that their masterpiece Idea has been so watered down to this pathetic, slapped together mess. It astounds me that 175,000 fans of DnD thought this was good. The game use to be unique. Each character class had their own spells unique to them, utilitarian spells were actually useful, certain classes used certain weapons that other classes couldn't, you could run dungeons, campaigns, mass battles, build castles, level 35 and spend hours having a ball with friends and your character took on a life of his own that was unique because he wasn't like the other classes in any way other than he was on the same adventure. Now it's a rinse and repeat. Pretty pictures, figurines and watered down characters. Don't forget to buy the next pre-made campaign to spice up you next adventure though. Don't get me all wrong though as there have been some relatively small improvements (the only one that actually comes to mind is the death saving throws to become stable) but other than the one I mentioned I can't think of any off the top of my head because of the prominent list of things that suck with this version far out number the good. I could go on and on even more than I already have but these are the ones that irritate me the most and immediately come to mind. As a matter of fact the only reason I play is because my son is getting into it and it is quality time with him. I hope he loses interest quickly so I don't have to be tortured to play for long and I'll likely never pick it up again.

I honestly think you overinvested in the game.(And could have gotten the books for about $90 in amazon) If you come from BECMI the game is indeed going to feel like too much at once. Yeah I think that you would have been better off starting with the starter set, then going for the (free) basic rules once you want to create new characters and then get the Monster Manual once you want to start making your own adventures. Then you can go to the SRD for more character classes beyond the 4, then once you exhaust these, you get the PHB. And once you start wanting to hack the system you get the DMG. (And only then, unless you can't wait to get your hands on artifacts, but any way I would get Xanathar's Guide to Everything before the DMG, the DMG is more of a hackers guide to the game, I mean the important parts needed to run the game are in the basic rules)

You know, what, I suggest you get and print the basic rules. These and the Monster Manual together are all you need to run the game with everything in one place.

Now, on the classes being less unique, they aren't different by their weapons or their spells anymore. (I would say that outside of the Basic line, classes haven't been that different in a long time. In Ad&d bards casted the same spells as druids, in 2e priests and bards shared spells with magic users, in 3e the sorcerer and wizard had virtually the same spell list. Cleric/priests have been able to use bladed weapons since 2e, everybody has been able to hide, climb and pickpockets since 3e -almost 20 years ago-) Instead they get unique playstyles (Paladins smite, barbarians rage, clerics call for miracles, druids turn into animals, sorcerers bend magic, bards make the party more competent, warlocks get a chance to recover magic and wizards still carry around ugly dusty tomes), but if it helps. I suggest you cut down to the basic rules, at least until you get a chance to really feel the system.

(And ok, utility spells do suck a bit)
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
I agree that the vague rules are a bit annoying even though I understand why they did it (it was because they felt lazy, right? ;) ). Seriously though, a bit more rules and not rulings would have been helpful IMO because otherwise I just feel like I am making up my own game. I've done that before and have no desire to do so again. But because of the issues with rules and some points of balance, we have so many house rules it is annoying (I think we're up to 15 pages or so...).

I also dislike how so many classes overlap through archetypes. Take Eldritch Knight, for example, you are basically a Fighter/Magic-User, but without having to multiclass and with watered down spell progression. An incredible number of the archetypes have spells or spell-like features without having to be a caster at all. Not my flavor personally.

In earlier editions I loved playing all sorts of character races and classes, but in 5E I find myself gravitating towards similar races and classes repeatedly. The others just lack appeal for some reason.

I would like to see D&D deviate from the class/level structure to a more feature/skill-based system. Your "class" is determined by what skills you know and where you put your strengths (are you good at combat? do you know magic? etc.).

I do like the speed of play if you want to go faster. We've adopted average damage for everything (players, monsters, spells, traps... everything) and also only roll initiative at the beginning of an encounter. Combat goes SO much faster and our DM uses the time to really story tell the encounter now. It is strange, but a pleasant change.

I love the advantage/disadvantage system. To me, that is probably the best single improvement from 5E.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Oof. Of all the thread to necro. 😐

[MENTION=6992330]crassballs[/MENTION] I recommend giving it more of a chance. I’m pretty old school and it’s easy to mod in play. Plus you’ll be able to keep current.

After you give it a fair shake, if it’s not working for you, just play one of the many excellent OSR/retroclones out there.

Good luck and good gaming.

You can get a pod Rules cyclopedia by $20 and I'm almost sure the immortal rules are also in pod.
 




jgsugden

Legend
(edit - this was in reference to crassballs post prior to that threat being merged into the 5E trashing post)...I find it strange that someone would bother to hunt down a site for discussing RPGs and make their first post be about how much they hate the game. I mean, he speaks like he has played prior editions, but this is the first time he makes a post on Enworld? Very odd...

Regardless, most people playing 5E prefer it to prior editions. It isn't perfect, but we prefer this package to the 4E, 3.5, 3E, 2E, AD&D, BECMI, and Pathfinder options. A few might prefer other editions, but are stuck with what their group wants to play. There are a lot of great things about the game... How do I know this? Because they're not idiots and they continue to play it despite having the books for prior editions.

As for the concerns regarding what makes a druid's spells different than a mage's, ranger's, sorcerer's or paladin's lists? Well, there is a lot more to a class than just a spell list as a starting point. However, while the druid, wizard, ranger, paladin and sorcerer all have some overlap, they also have some spells that are relatively unique to their class that make them stand out. After playing several wizards, clerics, and druids - as well as some rangers, bards, sorcerers, warlocks, eldritch knights and arcane tricksters - they do feel different from each other. Heck, due to the limitations on spell selections, most PCs within each of these classes feels different.

In my experience, howeve, the rule set usually isn't what makes a great game. While a bad ruleset can ruin a game, it is actually the players and GM that differentiate a great game from a mediocre game - not the rules. This game design is certainly good enough to allow for phenomenal games - I've played in many.
 
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