D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[EzekielRaiden]

I dunno about that. Action Surge is pretty huge, especially outside of combat. There may be times where it's the difference between life and death, for one character to take two actions in six seconds.

Okay, initially I did a double-take here, but on re-reading the rules, you are correct--Action Surge, technically speaking, does not explicitly state that it can only be used in combat. It does, however, say "on your turn." "Turns" are explicitly defined as being part of combat--I have not been able to find a reference to non-combat "turns" in the PHB. This is something I'd consider a pretty severely grey area--I, personally, wouldn't say anything that modifies a turn's nature* could be used outside of combat, generally speaking, unless the book explicitly said it could be.

Edit:
Just to add some...spice to the conversation, in the "Adventuring" chapter (p. 181) it explicitly talks about the units of time outside of combat (minutes, hours, days) and then makes explicit note that there is a different time-scale used for "combat and other fast-paced situations," which is rounds (6 seconds each). Turns are not mentioned at all. It is only on page 189, the "Combat" chapter, where the concept of the "Turn" is first defined. It seems pretty clear to me that Action Surge was not meant to be used outside of "combat and other fast-paced situations." Certainly not tasks that take longer than a round (6 seconds, as noted) to complete. Especially because it is only within the "turn" that it means anything at all to "take one action," let alone take "one additional action," which is what Action Surge actually does.

I'm not sure that most out-of-combat utility--with the exception of spells, naturally--is even given defined status as "an action" or not, which would seem to preclude such things from being "an action you could take."

Edit II: Action Surge explicitly modifies how a turn works, rather than saying a particular thing you DO with a turn. It's sort of analogous to the "bag of rats" thing from 4e: certain powers are acceptable for out-of-combat use, e.g. Burning Spray used to set a patch of oil on fire, while others are not acceptable, such as a power that heals you for X amount for hitting a creature. In this case, Action Surge seems inappropriate for out-of-combat use both from fluff and crunch: the crunch modifies the nature of a turn rather than the nature of things your character can do, and the fluff is pretty clear that it's a purely physical, and very brief, thing ("you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment") rather than a "you can do two things simultaneously regardless of their complexity or duration."

 

[Pickles III]

Perhaps this will change as we play at higher levels but then I've also been told most people don't play beyond 12...

This was from the WotC survey results:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/april-survey-results

It matches my experience though in 4e we got to low teens a few times & 5e progresses at that sort of pace.

Even so due to the prevalence of starting at level 1 the low levels (3-10?) are massively more important to most people's experiences.

1 & 2 are too fast to really skew things - for all that Moon Druids are OP at level 2 it's a tiny blip.

 

[Imaro]

This was from the WotC survey results:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/april-survey-results

It matches my experience though in 4e we got to low teens a few times & 5e progresses at that sort of pace.

Even so due to the prevalence of starting at level 1 the low levels (3-10?) are massively more important to most people's experiences.

1 & 2 are too fast to really skew things - for all that Moon Druids are OP at level 2 it's a tiny blip.

Thanks... I'd love to see that survey taken again, because I probably would have said the same thing when I first started but now we'll definitely be going past 12th level. I'd raise that minimum we plan to stop at to 15th or 16th level, at least for my group at this point...

 

[Aribar]

So something more constructive than "fighters can't do anything out of combat"?
* ignores literally decades of D&D where players did in fact contribute long before there was a specific power/ability that told them they could
* or assumes that the other classes always have the right power/spell/ability available all the time in every situation (which never actually happens in actual game play).
* reliant on metagaming that discourages actual role-playing (which is the worst offender of this list, IMO. Telling someone they shouldn't attempt something because another player has a higher modifier for example).

Just wanted to add my two cents of anecdotal experience here. In general, specific powers/abilities seem to give almost a guarantee (3E Glibness's +20 Bluff) or actually do just plain work (4E Rogue's level 22 Hide in Plain Sight). Yes, using them takes up some resources and can't endlessly occur because D&D has more or less been about resource management. However, that's still a few times per day where, for example, spellcasters and so on can just say, "I bypass this because Magic" and Fighters pray the dice let them lift that portcullis; they have no similar ability to automatically succeed in an area that should be their strength (let alone their weakness).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'd also like to remind the readers of this thread, some of whom have been quite nasty about this particular point, that prepared casters of all sorts in 5e do not have to prepare all of their spells at once. They can prepare them at any time during the day, taking 1 minute per spell level for each spell.

In fact, other than spells they know for sure are going to be useful, it actually seems like a better choice to leave a couple of your "preparation slots" unfilled since that presumably means a spell-based solution to an issue is quite literally five minutes' gesticulation away, or less.* Scaling combat cantrips even make preparing at least one direct-damage spell no longer a total "no-brainer" choice. With even a moderate number of spell scrolls found as treasure (say, the equivalent of 1 extra learned spell per spell level, with redundancies held as backups), plus Ritual versions (which only require preparation, *not* an available slot--unless you're a Wizard or Bard, then you don't even need to prepare it!), I'd say 5e is much closer to the "Batman Wizard" (or any other prepared full-caster, e.g. Druid, Cleric) stuff of 3e than many fans would like to admit. Which is to say, that is in fact like that, to a small degree, rather than no degree at all.

It's *not* actually at the level of 3e, because they haven't (yet?) provided the kind of incredibly abusable crafting stuff that 3e had--please don't mistake me for saying that it is the same. It's not the same. I'm repeating this just to make sure it's clear: it is NOT the same. I'm just saying that I think a lot of people view 5e magic as being something closer to 2e or earlier, when its casting stuff is much, much more like 3e than it is prior editions.

With on-the-go preparation, simply preparing spells rather than filling specific slots (so preparing both a pure-combat spell and a pure-utility spell doesn't lock you into using exactly one of each), Rituals to fill in some of the gaps (which you might not even have to prepare), and any other goodies that come from whatever caster-class chassis or subclass you've chosen, such as the Diviner's Portent or the Knowledge Domain's "Read Thoughts" (which also enables *mind control*!), 5e's prepared full casters are sitting quite comfortably.

*With Casting mod + Class level "preparations" available to most prepared full-caster classes, it's not hard to leave 1-2 "open." At 3rd level, you have (3+3) = 6 prepared spells, plus any subclass-provided "free" spells (which, generally, is an additional 2 spells), and you can cast 6 spells (or 6 + two spell levels, for Wizards). At 8th level, presuming a caster shooting for max casting modifier, you have (8+5) = 13 prepared spells, plus any freebies (4 at this point, if relevant), but you can only cast 12 spells (or 12 + four spell levels, for Wizards). It's only Wizards, or relatively high-level non-Wizards (10+, roughly), who ever need to consider preparing all of their spells for the day...and even the Wizard is hard-pressed to cast one of every spell she prepares in a day. Casting two spells twice each almost guarantees that she won't, so she might as well save those preparations, just in case a need comes along she hadn't anticipated! While a non-Wizard has 17 prepared spells, including some intended to be "mainstays" for the subclass in question, so surely saving even three or four preparation slots couldn't hurt!

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'd also like to remind the readers of this thread, some of whom have been quite nasty about this particular point, that prepared casters of all sorts in 5e do not have to prepare all of their spells at once. They can prepare them at any time during the day, taking 1 minute per spell level for each spell.

In fact, other than spells they know for sure are going to be useful, it actually seems like a better choice to leave a slot or two of every level "open," since that presumably means a spell-based solution to an issue is quite literally five minutes' gesticulation. Scaling combat cantrips even make preparing at least one direct-damage spell no longer a total "no-brainer" choice. With even a moderate number of spell scrolls found as treasure (say, the equivalent of 1 extra learned spell per spell level, with redundancies held as backups), plus Ritual versions (which only require preparation, *not* an available slot--unless you're a Wizard or Bard, then you don't even need to prepare it!), I'd say 5e is much closer to the "Batman Wizard" (or any other prepared full-caster, e.g. Druid, Cleric) stuff of 3e than many fans would like to admit. Which is to say, that is in fact like that, to a small degree, rather than no degree at all.

It's *not* actually at the level of 3e, because they haven't (yet?) provided the kind of incredibly abusable crafting stuff that 3e had--please don't mistake me for saying that it is the same. It's not the same. I'm repeating this just to make sure it's clear: it is NOT the same. I'm just saying that I think a lot of people view 5e magic as being something closer to 2e or earlier, when its casting stuff is much, much more like 3e than it is prior editions.

With on-the-go preparation, simply preparing spells rather than filling specific slots (so preparing both a pure-combat spell and a pure-utility spell doesn't lock you into using exactly one of each), Rituals to fill in some of the gaps (which you might not even have to prepare), and any other goodies that come from whatever caster-class chassis or subclass you've chosen, such as the Diviner's Portent or the Knowledge Domain's "Read Thoughts" (which also enables *mind control*!), 5e's prepared full casters are sitting quite comfortably.

I don't think this is true. Or at the very least intended that way. Two things:

1. casters like sorcerers and bards have to choose their spells when they level, and from a limited list. The argument I and others have made re: people always assuming the caster has the right spell available all the time is very much valid, especially with casters like these.
2: you can only change your prepared spells after a long rest. That infers that no changes to your prepared list can be made beforehand. Removing/adding/changing all fall under "changing" the list. For example, when I give a list of requirements to the project team, even if they add one later, it's still changing the list.

 

[Imaro]

Just a few thoughts on the Acton Surge discussion...

PHB pg. 181

"In combat and other fast-paced situations, the game relies on rounds, a 6 second span of time described in chapter 9"

So it clearly calls out rounds as a way to keep track of time in fast paced situations, which are apparently different from combat since if they weren't... there would be no reason to make a distinction... It's also pretty clear that instead of wasting the space reprinting the rules for rounds since they are already in chapter 9... it refers the reader to the section on rounds because it would be a waste of space to reprint them... I would also assume that the reader can substitute fast paced situations for combat in said rules since rounds are used for either one, even though Chapter 9 talks about rounds in the context of combat. Moving to Chapter 9...

Chapter 9 defines a round as follows...

" A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round each participant in a battle takes a turn

Well since we already know that a round can also be used in a fast paced situation, and we should refer to Chapter 9 for the rules of a round... I think common sense would tell us that when using rounds in a fast paced situation, as opposed to combat, we would substitute the situation for battle in the above quote...



Also a few other places rounds or game mechanics used in a round are mentioned in Chapter 8...

PHB pg. 181
SPEED
"Every character and monster has a speed which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round. The number assumes short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of life threatening situations"

So another mention of rounds and how they relate to a characters speed... The wording is also specific in that not just combat but any life threatening situation can use this method of time tracking...

PHB pg. 182
SPECIAL TYPES OF MOVEMENT
" While climbing or swimming, each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain), unless a creature has a climbing or swimming speed. At the DM's option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check."

Again here it mentions the character or creatures speed which is determined in rounds for both climbing and swimming...


Honestly, I don't see how one could arrive at the conclusion that...

1. rounds/turns are only for combat
2. Action Surge can only be used in combat (especially since it doesn't explicitly state that)
3.Nothing but spells are defined in terms of an action...Movement is defined in terms of an action... Help is defined in terms of an action... Hide is defined in terms of an action...Search is defined in terms of an action.Use an Object is defined in terms of an action. Even improvisation is defined as an action.

NOTE: The "Cast a Spell" action is also listed in the combat chapter... does that mean spells can only be cast in combat?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Just a few thoughts on the Acton Surge discussion...<snip>

Honestly, I don't see how one could arrive at the conclusion that...

1. rounds/turns are only for combat
2. Action Surge can only be used in combat (especially since it doesn't explicitly state that)
3.Nothing but spells are defined in terms of an action...Movement is defined in terms of an action... Help is defined in terms of an action... Hide is defined in terms of an action...Search is defined in terms of an action.Use an Object is defined in terms of an action. Even improvisation is defined as an action.

NOTE: The "Cast a Spell" action is also listed in the combat chapter... does that mean spells can only be cast in combat?

1: Do any of the citations you gave mention a "turn" in a non-combat context? Some do mention rounds; that's worth noting. But turns? I'm not seeing it. Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but it seems important.
2: As I explicitly said, it doesn't speak either way. Technically speaking, neither of us is right or wrong, because the book does not speak on it. I'd genuinely like to know what the WotC people think.
3: *facepalm* Yes, because "walking around" is an out-of-combat utility thing. I'll grant you the Search thing. That certainly weakens my case.

Now, how do you respond to the "I can search the room AND disarm this complex trap AT THE SAME TIME" problem? Because *that* to me is pretty conclusive justification for it NOT working outside of combat. Doing two attacks, or attacking *and* running the hell away, in a few seconds? That makes sense. Being able to perform two complex, long-duration tasks "at the same time" does not make sense.

You've made some good points. I'm not nearly as certain of my position as I was before. But I'm still stuck on the "I can bandage my buddy's wounds AND walk across this tightrope AT THE SAME TIME" thing.

Edit: And I'll note, the "at the same time" thing is...really kind of the whole point. Like, if it's not simultaneous, why even bother? It would be expending a precious and important resource to do exactly what you would already do, that is, do two tasks in sequence. If ability checks count as actions (which Search would imply), this leads to either a painfully unrealistic scenario, or a use of dubious or even negative "benefit."

 

[Imaro]

That said though, Tyrlaan, you technically aren't quite accurate about Remarkable Athlete. Loath as I am to say anything positive about it, it is not just "athletics." It's all physical ability checks--regardless of whether they can get proficiency normally--that you aren't already proficient in. Unfortunately, this means the biggest benefit is Initiative. The Fighter is almost guaranteed to have one of Athletics or Acrobatics, given that those are skills on their class list. Technically speaking, RA also benefits any attempt at a "nonstandard" Skill use--for example, wanting to roll a Strength (Intimidation) check would technically allow a Fighter that isn't proficient in Intimidation to get half-proficiency on it, if the DM allowed such a check, though this is forging into a pretty serious grey area. (That is, AFAICT the books neither support nor refute the possibility of using "off stats" for a particular skill.)

I know we aren't discussing this topic with each other anymore... but just wanted to clear this up. Skills with different abilities is a variant rule that is actually addressed in the PHB on page 175... so it's not a rulings vs. rules things, it's a what optional rules are we using thing...

 

[Pickles III]

Action surge is dwarfed in utility by cunning action, especially for thieves