Why does the Warmace (CW) have a -1 penalty to AC?

[Ottergame]

If you just remove the -1 AC penalty to the weapon, then it makes it much better then the maul, which is the blundgeon version of the dwarven waraxe and bastard sword. I'd just perfer to remove the warmace all together and just call it a maul.

 

[DrSpunj]

If you just remove the -1 AC penalty to the weapon, then it makes it much better then the maul, which is the blundgeon version of the dwarven waraxe and bastard sword.

Ah! Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't really look over the other weapons in the Complete Warrior when examining the Warmace; I was focusing on similar weapons (stat-wise) in the PHB only.

If my math is correct (which it probably isn't so correct me if I'm wrong) a Maul (at 1d10, x3) will do (5.5 + .55 =) 6.05 damage per hit on average, while a Warmace (at 1d12, x2) will do (6.5 + .325 =) 6.825 damage per hit on average.

So is .775 better damage on average worth a -1 penalty to AC all the time? Maybe.

And I think it's a bit odd that a Warmace is so unwieldly it deserves this penalty when a Maul weighs twice as much as a Warmace (20 lbs vs 10 lbs).

I'd just perfer to remove the warmace all together and just call it a maul.

I may do that, but I'm quite sure my player chose this weapon because he likes rolling the d12.

Besides, we've already played one session and he's already accepted the -1 penalty to AC, so he's not going to feel cheated if we continue using it that way. "Don't fix what isn't broken" and all that; from this player's POV anyway things are working fine.

It's just that another player (who DMs for another group) just looked over the Warmace's stats and was a bit surprised about the -1 penalty to AC and I couldn't easily justify it being there so I wanted to ask for opinions.

Thanks to everyone who's sharing theirs! Keep'em coming!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Li Shenron]

Furthermore, is there any other weapon which can be helded one hand - even at a feat cost - and does d12 damage? BSword and DWaraxe do only d10, and even if they have better criticals I think the better damage deserves some penalty. Incidentally, I don't recall historical armies using maces or hammers, and I think the weight is the major reason, so the penalty actually makes sense from this point of view as well. (ok, PC don't have normal strength...)

 

[Nail]

Furthermore, is there any other weapon which can be helded one hand - even at a feat cost - and does d12 damage?

Numbers aside, I think this is the real issue. That is, a "barrier" has been broken in one-handed medium-sized weapons: d10 is the core limit.

Concentrating on the numbers (your math looks great!), the difference isn't much to speak of.....until you start finding ways of getting a higher crit range, or using a larger sized weapon. I imagine this is one of those "if you let the camel's nose into the tent...." sort of questions.

On a cinematic level, I can't help but think of a Warmace as the weapon used by one of the BBEGs in the movie Conan the Barbarian. Plenty of time was necessary to recover from each swing. ..Then again, it was an actor (Luis Barboo).

 

[DrSpunj]

Numbers aside, I think this is the real issue. That is, a "barrier" has been broken in one-handed medium-sized weapons: d10 is the core limit.

Right, Li Shenron makes an excellent point.

I just keep coming back to the point that a (not even) +1 average damage is not equal/worth a -1 penalty to your AC while wielding this thing, IMO. Obviously my player's mileage varies. <shrug>

And you're right, Nail that increasing the crit range (with either Keen or the Improved Critical feat, or both since I allow them to stack IMC ) widens the gap even further.

If I thought this player wasn't interested in those feats and magical abilities I might drop the -1 penalty to AC, but I'm quite certain he's headed in that direction already. He's just that kind of player.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

I just keep coming back to the point that a (not even) +1 average damage is not equal/worth a -1 penalty to your AC

FWIW, I agree. Not quite equal. ...but it's not outlandish, either, I think.

As a confirmed Min-maxer, my frustration with weapons is that there are only a few that are any good. For one-handed weapons (for a sword & board style), longsword or scimitar. Get the bastard sword if you can spare the feat.

The warmace, RAW, might just add to that list. (Bludgeoning, slightly higher damage, -1AC: maybe a good trade?) Adding to the list would be a good thing.

BTW, you could also change the crit multiplier. That might be okay, and also let that player roll all of his d12s. 'Cause who has more than 3 of 'em?

 

[ouini]

If this weapon were proposed to me as a GM, I'd either make them use two hands (if the d12 were their priority) or I'd lower the damage (if using one hand were their priority).

But, given that the thing has already seen play, I think I agree with Kiznit (?), who noticed that this is very very likely a shield/no-shield trade-off, in the creators' minds. Why do fighters often resist using two handed weapons? Most often it's because they want a shield on one arm to raise AC. In that regard, having a -1 AC seems quite balanced, even though it's completely out-of-line with every other weapon in existence.

Now, when you factor in that a single AC point means less in a game (like DrSpunj's) which includes defense bonus, than in a normal game, this loss of a single AC point loses some of its restrictive value. But big deal ... neither the player nor the GM mind tracking the change, and more importantly the player's having fun with it. Sounds like a good deal as is.

 

[DrSpunj]

But big deal ... neither the player nor the GM mind tracking the change, and more importantly the player's having fun with it. Sounds like a good deal as is.

Yeah, I think I'm going to leave it as is. It's not something I'd personally take as a player (I'd probably stick with the Maul for 1-handed use) but I can't say its unbalanced in the player's favor. If I was going to tweak it at all I'd probably use Nail's suggestion and bump the crit multiplier on the Warmace to x3, but I'm not going to fix a problem that isn't there for my player. If he feels less than satisfied with it after we play a few more suggestions then I'll offer that to him.

Thanks everyone!

DrSpunj

 

[Darklone]

Do you guys remember the CRPG Evil Island? Different weapon kinds had different bonuses to attack/AC there... For style reasons, I really liked that idea, for realism... ah well.

Anyhow, I guess I'm off to houserules again for such a system