Why does Undead=Evil

[Sejs]

In your mind, your viewpoint, is Evil an actual Malevelant Force in and to itself?

In the sense of a single, cohesive, identifiable body, like the sun, and from which all subsequent evil generates? Or more in a sense of an identifiable phenomenon, like beta radiation, which may be generated from dissimilar sources even though the evil produced is identical?

 

[Scion]

True. Why should it be?

::shrugs:: some people on this thread want it to be evil to justify their stances. Every now and then someone has to reiterate that it isnt evil.

Edit: woo! 2k posts! lol

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, I was going to respond to this thread again, but Raven Crowking has just dropped a monster of a post here and said most of what I would have said (and much more), only much more eloquently.

 

[Sejs]

Heh, part of our collective problem here is that you know... we're giving this topic -way- more thought than the game designers did. That being said, I'm pretty sure I've got the answer to RCs "Why are undead considered evil in the D&D 3.X rules?" question:

So good guys can blast them with stuff that only works on evil targets.

 

[The Great Bear King]

Demons, Devils-they're evil because they consistenly make the choice to do evil. From RW religion, Satan/Lucifer (the model for many demons and devils in D&D) wasn't created evil, he chose evil. They have the option of making the choice to do good, and do the opposite. If you have an example of an evil being who has changed alignment yet still detects as evil, I'd be forced to say that that is probably based on contagion or a philosophy requiring posthumous repentence for evil acts not repented for in life.

That makes sense. If a demon or devil chooses good over evil they eventually become celestials. The reason most fiends begin evil is because they are raised to be evil by their elders.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That makes sense. If a demon or devil chooses good over evil they eventually become celestials. The reason most fiends begin evil is because they are raised to be evil by their elders.

Eh, no.

In fact, a Galbrezu who eventually becomes Lawful Good and takes Paladin levels still has the [Evil] subtype, and will still radiate an aura of Evil to a Detect Evil spell.

He'll also radiate an aura of Good to a Detect Good spell, but that's neither here nor there.

A demon or devil is Evil because, at a fundamental level, they are made up of the stuff of Evil - remember, Outsiders do not have a dual nature (body and soul). They are one and the same.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Heh, part of our collective problem here is that you know... we're giving this topic -way- more thought than the game designers did.

I agree. It's like those threads you see every once in a while, complaining that the prices for goods in the PH and the Craft (item) rules do not delineate a viable economy.

 

[Geoff Watson]

That makes sense. If a demon or devil chooses good over evil they eventually become celestials. The reason most fiends begin evil is because they are raised to be evil by their elders.

No, demons and devils are always evil. They have no choice. They cannot choose good, any more that a water elemental can choose to be made of fire.

It is possible for them to change magically (Helm of Opposite Alignment, some stuff in the Book of Exalted Deeds), but not normally.

Of course, this is for core D&D; some specific settings may change this.

Geoff.

 

[Bronn]

I think Sejs is absolutely right. I dislike this lack of logic though.
Illogical things are tough to relate too since they make no sense.

Zombies are mindless, they do not choose to kill innocents, the ones who orders them does. They are the evil ones here not the body with no choice.

I doubt I will care what happens to my body after I'm dead since I'll be gone.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Apologies to all who posted between my previous post and this one- I'm preparing my house for an influx of relatives fleeing Ivan, so I'm not taking the time to read this stuff right now.

I'm not ignoring those previous posts, however, and will return to them as soon as possible.

However, I found this to be worth posting in my few moments online tonight.

A little research on my part has turned up an error that we have largely ignored. We mostly assumed that the 3x Designers made all or almost all undead irrevocably evil. They did not. Besides the Osiris example brought up before, and the Deathless of BoED/Eberron, I turned this up-

Undead Alignments by book:

Monster Manual

Mummy-"Usually Lawful Evil"

Monster Manual 2

Banshee, Deathbringer- "Usually neutral evil"
Corpse Gatherer - "Usually Neutral"
Gravecrawler - "Always Neutral"
Jahi-"Usually Lawful Evil"
Ragewind- "Usually Chaotic Evil"
Death Knight "Same as character (always evil)"

Magic of Faerun

Crypt Spawn- "Usually Evil"

Dieties and Demigods

Osiris-"Lawful Good"
Greater Mummy-"Any"


As you can see, some of these undead are given alignments that can vary. One, Osiris, is a unique being, so he can be discounted. However, note that the Crypt Spawn is only "Usually Evil," the Corpse Gatherer is "Usually Neutral" and the Greater Mummy can be "Any" alignment.

(The Death Knight is presented to show that when the designers want to say that something is always evil, they do.)

So, in a sense, this thread's predicate quesion is incorrect: "Undead = Evil" is not the case in 3xEd. There is merely a presumption of evil, and DMs are given the option to control when.

The question THEN becomes why are some evil and not others- why is the equation not true? As I have stated before in previous posts, I believe that is because of the will of the creature becoming undead.