D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[Ashrym]

you might try reading the whole post, I can see why you trimmed the quote too, keep reading & you see this paragraph

In short, the limitation of 1/long rest is effectively meaningless making the original version practically the same value. It's like the difference from having a winning lottery ticket for seventy five million dollars but you need to visit the north pole to claim it & having someone else being given a winning lottery ticket for balance reasons but that ticket is only seventy four point 8 million dollarsbut they can only spend a quarter million per day

I didn't quote that part because I didn't disagree that it's normal to only replace a spell or two depending on situation. for a lot of people. Where it's more relevant is a separate list travelling through the wilderness and then changing it the morning of the dungeon delve and some people do that after they have enough preparation slots.

I joined this discussion regarding arcana when the comments were being made that wizards aren't the best at arcana but the reality is that they almost always are outside of some specialized builds.

I'm going to circle back to a point I made to which you didn't respond. Wizards got things too. 5e separating spell slots and preparation was a huge benefit for them so it's a bit facetious to mention properties of wizards given to other classes when properties of classes were also given to wizards. I made the same point regarding bardic knowledge because the prominence of ability scores in 5e gives wizards a strong general knowledge in all areas of knowledge they didn't have before.

Wizards got things in this UA. Two cleric rituals. That's a solid benefit because of the wizard's ritual caster mechanic. Any time ritual spells are added to the wizard list it's a solid benefit.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Every class is able to contribute meaningfully in all pillars, at a fairly close range of efficacy.

IDK, are you thinking it's all BA, it's all checks out of combat, nothing overwhelms the d20, so everyone's 'contributing,' even if it's an unmodified d20 or a help action?

The idea that being able to completely rip through an encounter via damage on a reliable basis only merits Tier 4 is preposterous, but even if we accepted it, no class in 5e is just that.

It's one kind of challenge, in one Pillar. The GWM Champion who can blenderize his way through a couple of melee beasts can be quite at a loss vs a horde or combat that ends up mostly at range, and out of combat, he's got nothing much going for him beyond warm-body contributions. The Berserker's in prettymuch the same boat, plus he might find himself out of Rage at times.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

IDK, are you thinking it's all BA, it's all checks out of combat, nothing overwhelms the d20, so everyone's 'contributing,' even if it's an unmodified d20 or a help action?

It's one kind of challenge, in one Pillar. The GWM Champion who can blenderize his way through a couple of melee beasts can be quite at a loss vs a horde or combat that ends up mostly at range, and out of combat, he's got nothing much going for him beyond warm-body contributions. The Berserker's in prettymuch the same boat, plus he might find himself out of Rage at times.

Which puts them at the bottom of Tier 3, at worst.

And a Champion is quite capable of killing everything in sight with a longbow, regardless of Fighting Style and feats.

Berserker is probably the most limited subclass in the edition, and yet, Rage has strong out of combat relevance.

As for combat being one pillar, it’s at the very least an entire third of the game. When a character is able to rip through whole encounters in 1 pillar (the one the game tends to focus on most) without expending resources, that is a heavy weight on the scales of competitive efficacy overall.

 

[tetrasodium]

I didn't quote that part because I didn't disagree that it's normal to only replace a spell or two depending on situation. for a lot of people. Where it's more relevant is a separate list travelling through the wilderness and then changing it the morning of the dungeon delve and some people do that after they have enough preparation slots.

I joined this discussion regarding arcana when the comments were being made that wizards aren't the best at arcana but the reality is that they almost always are outside of some specialized builds.

I'm going to circle back to a point I made to which you didn't respond. Wizards got things too. 5e separating spell slots and preparation was a huge benefit for them so it's a bit facetious to mention properties of wizards given to other classes when properties of classes were also given to wizards. I made the same point regarding bardic knowledge because the prominence of ability scores in 5e gives wizards a strong general knowledge in all areas of knowledge they didn't have before.

Wizards got things in this UA. Two cleric rituals. That's a solid benefit because of the wizard's ritual caster mechanic. Any time ritual spells are added to the wizard list it's a solid benefit.

Like I said back in post 41, it's not any one thing. It's the fact that all of the tools that the wizard lass used to be able to put on a pedestal have effectively been given to the classes they used to compete with in those areas or those other classes were given a version that is almost as good. You can't argue any one of those pillars in a vacuum. It doesn't matter that it's a good thing other classes are competent with knowledge skills now; what matters is that wizards aren't really any better in that area where they used to excel in addition to so many other areas with the same treatment.

I didn't respond to your but wizards got spontaneous casting point because you were trying to argue things in a vacuum. Giving everyone spontaneous casting was both good and bad but there are a lot of pieces that you need to add up to a whole rather than just looking at that.

• Sorcerers now are the only ones with metamagic, it used to be options for wizard bonus feats. That's huge.
• Almost all the other wizard bonus feats (many of them right down to the name) are warlock invocations
• Sorcerer and warlock are both front loaded charisma based classes with abilities that stack in a multiplicative way that no sane 3.5 gm would do anything but laugh if a player brought it to them as some homebrew
• The fact that spells are upcast rather than scaling with caster level benefits the shorter spell list that sorcerers have
• The fact that damage types are generally irrelevant minimizes the value of having a larger spell list because now you can cast a particular spell using any slot you have where before in 3.5 you needed a 5th level spell like cone of cold or cloudkill to use a 5th level spell.... now you don't need to worry that cloudkill was probably poor against an adult white dragon or that cone of cold was a cone with cold damage because you can cast chromatic orb, ray of sickness, burning hands, cloud of daggers, reduce, scorching ray, suggestion, or even fireball out of that 5th level slot. In the end that expanded spell list is of dubious value.
• Yes wizard probably has a lot of utility /buff/debuff spells not available to sorcerer, but concentration requirements dramatically hamstring the value. If that were the only change it wouldn't be a big deal, but when combined with so many of the wizard's other core pillars of pride being washed away or duplicated the loss is tangible.
• When you figure that the wizard needs to find the spell in some form then spend gold to scribe it before they can use their "better" spell swap to the fact that the sorcerer & warlock both have full access to their class's entire spell list with their spell versatility it's hard to argue that the shorter list is A shorter, B even a meaninful handicap to scorlock, or C that the larger wizard list is especially meaningful in practice

 

[Tony Vargas]

Berserker is probably the most limited subclass in the edition, and yet, Rage has strong out of combat relevance.

Advantage on Strength checks?

As for combat being one pillar, it’s at the very least an entire third of the game. When a character is able to rip through whole encounters in 1 pillar

Is that what you meant? The DPR potentials in 5e are not that far out of whack, and even heavily optimized (also not relevant for tier ranking) single-target DPR carries you only in certain sorts of battles.

(the one the game tends to focus on most) without expending resources, that is a heavy weight on the scales of competitive efficacy overall.

Hit points are resources, Action Surge is a Resource, Rage is a resource.

 

[Ashrym]

IDK, are you thinking it's all BA, it's all checks out of combat, nothing overwhelms the d20, so everyone's 'contributing,' even if it's an unmodified d20 or a help action?

This very much makes a difference for me. Bounded accuracy also maintains the relevance of equipment a lot better than past editions. This doesn't necessarily come directly from the class (well, class proficiency for those items does and bonus feats) but when I'm playing where my options came from doesn't stop me from making use of them and are still part of the total character.

It's one kind of challenge, in one Pillar. The GWM Champion who can blenderize his way through a couple of melee beasts can be quite at a loss vs a horde or combat that ends up mostly at range, and out of combat, he's got nothing much going for him beyond warm-body contributions. The Berserker's in prettymuch the same boat, plus he might find himself out of Rage at times.

Athletics and gear makes a lot of exploration challenges minor. I find the lower DC's, lack of needing to roll, and equipment options marginalizes the benefits for spells for quite some time.

We've had this discussion before so I've been leaving you to your opinion, but mine hasn't changed. Magic isn't all that, especially at lower levels. Fighters aren't as good as other classes in these areas but that doesn't mean the character cannot contribute well enough to be relevant.

As for the case of the GWM champion at range, he can still take a bow out and shoot it if necessary. He might even have spent that second fighting style towards it. Improved critical doesn't care if it's a ranged or melee weapon. The wizard is still limited by concentration and action economy in defensive options, plus low hit points.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I didn't respond to your but wizards got spontaneous casting point because you were trying to argue things in a vacuum. Giving everyone spontaneous casting was both good and bad but there are a lot of pieces that you need to add up to a whole rather than just looking at that.

It's pretty effing significant, and when certain classes already had spontaneous casting that's not "giving it to everyone" that giving to the Tier 1 prepped casters who didn't already have it.

Sorcerers now are the only ones with metamagic, it used to be options for wizard bonus feats.

Up-casting is tantamount to 3e metamagic, and "everyeone" essentially get heighten for free. Metamagic is not really what it was in 3e.

Spontaneous casting, OTOH, is, and it's nuts combined with prepped casting.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This very much makes a difference for me. Bounded accuracy also maintains the relevance of equipment a lot better than past editions. This doesn't necessarily come directly from the class (well, class proficiency for those items does and bonus feats) but when I'm playing where my options came from doesn't stop me from making use of them and are still part of the total character.

Nod, I get the logic, I just don't see a contribution that literally anyone could make as meaningful anymore.

 

[tetrasodium]

It's pretty effing significant, and when certain classes already had spontaneous casting that's not "giving it to everyone" that giving to the Tier 1 prepped casters who didn't already have it.

Up-casting is tantamount to 3e metamagic, and "everyeone" essentially get heighten for free. Metamagic is not really what it was in 3e.

Spontaneous casting, OTOH, is, and it's nuts combined with prepped casting.

and we are talking in a thread about how all of the wizard's meaningful strengths are either outright removed as a possibility (force multiplier of god wizard types & concentration limitations) or given to other classes in ways that are either basically the same or very close but stuck with a meaningless disadvantage... no, it's not significant at all.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Advantage on Strength checks? Is that what you meant? The DPR potentials in 5e are not that far out of whack, and even heavily optimized (also not relevant for tier ranking) single-target DPR carries you only in certain sorts of battles.
Hit points are resources, Action Surge is a Resource, Rage is a resource.

Right, and Fighters can destroy combat encounters without expending any, or at worst expending only some short rest resources. Barbarians have more exploration benefit that fighters, but have a limit on their main combat boost.

Oh, and Barbarians have advantage on Dex saves and move faster. Those are exploration benefits just as much as combat.

At absolute worst, I could see arguing that Champion, Berserker, and 4Elements Monk, are Tier 4. (But they get a boost with the recent UA features) Id disagree, but I can see the argument, somewhat.

But a whole 5e class? Nope. Not a single one.