Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[kigmatzomat]

The problem I have with high level campaigns is that designing encounters that should challenge the players without killing them is getting harder. I'm getting to the point where the players are so powerful that it takes something with incredible power to threaten them. The players all have huge strengths but also terrible weaknesses, so what might merely scratch one of the characters can kill another character in one round.

So kill the PCs. Look, in the teens "death" is the new "poisoned." It's debilitating and can result in problems but it isn't the end of the world. Well, unless it is.

Plots are harder to pull off. The PC's abilty to gather information skyrockets, and the NPC's ability to gather information (without using cheesy Scry) decreases.

As I see it, an adventure is composed of multiple parts. The earliest parts are figuring out WTF is going on. Divinations provide terse bits of information and while ad noseum "yes/no" divinations can help narrow down suspects, it can be very misleading, especially if NPCs act with knowledge of divinations.

I have NPCs use traditional methods of information gathering; spies & carrier pigeons. Most players have no concept of counter intelligence, as shown by the relative dearth of "bluff" skill.

Combat slows down; all those options aren't that great when combat takes four times as long.

Almost every group has someone who doesn't know the rules, which is fatal in a high level campaign.

That's a table control/experience issue. I provide a limited amount of time for people to act or they get delayed until later in the round. If the guy who forgets how to roll damage (he's a monk, it's always d20+7!!!!!) decides to do something unusual, I tell him to sum up his character's goal/intent and then I give him the check & DC. If he doesn't like it, he gets delayed until he figures something else out.

Rules lawyering is verboten during combats unless it's life or death for a PC at that moment. I make a mechanic ruling in the combat and, assuming neither of the two players who sometimes GM don't look at me like I'm crazy, that stands until there's a break.

I also trust my players to roll their attack sequences before their action is up. Combats do take a while IMC but I've got 8 PCs and 3 cohorts, which is just a lot of die rolling. That actually works in my favor as other players can look up the rolls during long die rolling bouts. During lags (when the fighter manages to fight something critable and his dice are being nice) I'll recap the situation so everyone is aware of what's going on and stays interested.

Some classes, like the fighter, are a lot less fun to play at high levels.

Matter of opinion, since there's a pure-melee, no-casting, no-Bo9S, character in the party. Besides, that's what PrCs are for.

Combat changes so much it's hard for many GMs to challenge the PCs (especially if they're all rules-competent). Combat can often get "swingy" as well, with lots of over-the-top PC-killing and lots of wimpy encounters with nothing in between

The first is a matter of experience. DMs who level PCs quickly will have trouble because they can't ease into it.

The second is a matter of approach. At low levels, being at half hitpoints is scary because you could be killed and magic won't necessarily heal you all the way up without bleeding the cleric dry. At 16th level the fighter has ~90 hp remaining. Mass Heal cures those wounds quickly. The solution is to "injure" the party with something other than HPs. Use more creatures/effects that cause stat/level drain/damage. Something that inflicts -4 Con damage will cause about 30% hp loss in a teen-level fighter but is felt much more viscerally than a 30 or even 50% hp loss.

Making matters worse, the ridiculous 4 encounters per day system breaks down even further at high levels. Spellcasters aren't going to run out if they're doing something other than direct damage, and in some campaigns the PCs can just take a nap anytime they want.

Napping is a matter of timing. I try to avoid the "24" syndrome of relentless action but bad things tend to occur in groups. Heck, each fight should raise a ruckus that could potentially attract other problems. It's not critical at high levels but it is a great nuisance when the party gets attacked by jackals. And the use of great magic, like high level adventurers use, can draw the attention of regional high level creatures that use daily divinations as a matter of course. Druids IMC with access to Commune with Nature use it daily to make sure no powerful creatures have entered the territory, no one is burning the forest, and what people are nearby. A 9-mile radius is good for finding those spell-blasted battle sites, the loss of a local monster, or the slim chance the party is in range.

High level NPCs take longer to design, and are (comparatively) weaker, especially if they're not a spellcaster.

I cheat. I recycle the player's old character sheets as baselines for NPCs. I need a lich? Fine, I'll use the PC wizard from 6 levels ago, change a couple feats & skills, and add a few levels. Tada, mostly done.

We use PCGen so I can quickly stat up 2 or 3 different variants, which I save since even if it doesn't get used now it might be a good basepoint later. "wizard-transmuter8th", "rogue5/lasher6", "archer-f6/rgr6/rog3" Combine that with a change in race "Frost Giant wizard-transmuter8th" and NPCs form quicker.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Its the one thing I've always had a hard time with: where were these uber baddies before the game, so to speak?

Good question. IMO, those uber-baddies were not-so-uber baddies, raising individual graveyards and amassing the army in preparation of the final invasion.

Or, if the Devil-Queen had attempted to take over the world, she was defeated by heroes and only mentioned by bards. DMs should occassionally have the players find a place that "just last year an army of banshees welled up from the mountain and slaughtered everyone until the High Clerist and his allies stuffed them back into their tomb."

Which begs the question, where are the other heroes? Do you ever mention any of them? I often forget to mention other adventurers, treating the PCs as "THE" heroes as compared to "a few" heroes. It's a common blindspot but something that would eliminate a lot of those questions.

 

[Particle_Man]

For me, it's because I have a harder time keeping up with (1) what everyone can do, and (2) the best tactics to overcome a really big bad villain. As a player, it's difficult but manageable, as a DM, it's absolute murder to set up a challenge that challenges, instead of either being a cakewalk or a party slaughter. It's like an oversensitive mouse on a computer -- you're always missing the mark.

Another problem is that, if you have a BBEG, with cohort, and minions, and they all have multiple kewl powers, it gets very hard to remember all of that stuff they have, and which would be most useful in the particular situation they find themselves in.

Heck, I find myself forgetting my character's useful abilities when I am a mid-level player. I couldn't imagine keeping track of that as a high-level DM. I wouldn't even try to run a wizard - just a Warlock of higher level. But with magic items, the "too many options" problem returns. I could ignore the options, but then the character is not a tactical challenge anymore, so I might as well go back to low level.

 

[Voadam]

Its the one thing I've always had a hard time with: where were these uber baddies before the game, so to speak?

I've been playing in a game with Banewarrens and Adventure Path adventures. My character is now 16th level and the big Bads behind the scenes that he deals with (Ashardalon and the Vladaams) have been there since the beginning. I've taken out a couple Vladaams and a lot of minions, but I know the top tier are still out there, and still way above me in power (particularly the archmage and Big Bad Papa Vladaam unholy warrior/blackguard? clan pater with his artefact hunger sword I know he used to stand down a Balor). I'm currently soloing against an advanced templated Aspect of Ashardalon, but I know my limits and feel I'm pushing them. I also know that if there is an aspect, the original Ashardalon is much tougher and might be out there. Luckily I also know they have been dealing with other things (demonic politics, etc.), giving me an opportunity to act at the levels I have been.

Foreshadowing is great for a long term campaign.

 

[howandwhy99]

How do you conquer a Lich-King?

• Diplomacy and trade embargoes
• War - via armies and/or armadas
• Send others to attack (Followers, Hirelings, etc) - like sending your apprentices & witch coven with selected magic items to control those ogres you captured. Your XP comes from your planning, orders, and their success or failure.
• PCs attack or infiltrate

Realistically, all of these may happen, whether individually or all at once. The difficulty is, there is far too much work to do for a small group of individuals to complete alone. In this instance, I'm assuming they are leaders. If your PCs aren't kings of some sort, what resources do they have access to?

Who knows if a setting has interceding Gods, floating cities that crush, or international law? If the PCs deal with strange odds and ends like these (at at high levels they almost certainly do), it gets very, very hard to write generic adventures for high level. Only the DM knows what can and can't be brought to bear on a challenge. And sometimes not even him.

High levels can be fun to play, but I don't think they will ever be encompassed by a single ruleset. That makes it harder to DM them.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Some people already mentioned politics as a task for high-level PCs. Some political aspects may be easier to handle with magic (e.g. use charm spells to favor a project, action, passing of a law), but others are more difficult to achieve. Surely, a PC may remove a king or queen, but then the people may not be happy about it. Not to speak of other rulers who fear to be the next target...And going to war without controlling the guys responsible for the organisation will likely end in a desaster.

IMC (epic level 25) politics became a very important aspect. And the powers behind the scene are strong and sometimes not easily located. Several networks work against each other, their goals should be understood before action is taken, just to avoid later problems...

The allies of the PCs need protection, sometimes they ask for help. Working for the king puts the party in the spotlight, making other guys aware of a new, maybe dangerous power.

Building a network that works for the PC is a difficult task, keeping it functional a more difficult one.

And the PCs should know that their strongest enemies are able to strike whereever they see fit and should avoid battles that deplete their powers to much. Attacking one powerful foe may be desastrous if the foe manages to escape after a hard fight and turns back on the same day with strong allies and attacks the party while it is weak. This strategy has worked so far, the players avoid depleting battles if possible and learned that diplomacy is a valuable option.

I don't care about spells that much (except for those I consider obviously broken), it turned out that a good buffed paladin or other frontline character is as powerful as a wizard casting high-end mass destruction spells (and thus becomes the first target of the enemy).

 

[Gentlegamer]

I think it might be that high level play suffers from "Day of the Dwarf" syndrome more than most players like.

 

[Voadam]

I think it might be that high level play suffers from "Day of the Dwarf" syndrome more than most players like.

What is that?

 

[jasin]

Matter of opinion, since there's a pure-melee, no-casting, no-Bo9S, character in the party.

Is he a barbarian?

 

[sniffles]

Is it that people just way more prefer the lower level games? Is D&D just more fun for the greatest number of people at lower levels?

jh

I don't have time to read this whole thread so someone else may already have made this comment. But I think that it's not necessarily people wanting only to play at lower levels - they're just not given the opportunity.

Taking myself as an example, the highest level D&D character I've ever played was 15th level, and that was only in a temporary game that ran from 12th to 15th. The highest level character I've played from first level has recently reached 13th level after 4 years real-world time in the same campaign.

On the other hand, I've played RuneQuest to the point that all of the PCs reached Runelord or equivalent status. Everyone had 100% or higher attack bonuses and was so festooned with magic gear they could hardly walk. We happened to have a very stable gaming group and a weekly schedule at the time.

But most campaigns in my experience don't reach that level because people get bored with the campaign as a whole and want to do something new, or more likely because real life interferes. People have kids, go to school, change jobs, move away...

I expect that a lot of players (and GMs) would like to play at high levels, but if you start at first level and then by the time you reach 6th level your GM moves out of town or wants to run something else now, you never get to see what it's like to be 18th level. In that instance the player has no information on which to base an opinion.