Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[Spatula]

I trade DM duties with one of the other members of my group. When I'm a player, the campaigns always seem to end at 12th-13th level, which was always frustrating for me. I wanted to keep going! But I think the DM would get bored with the campaign at that point - he generally had some sort of campaign arc planned, and having finished it, had no desire to go on.

Now I'm the DM, the PCs are 14th level, and I have to say it is a lot harder to prepare. Combats are a joke (barbarian kills monster that I spent an hour preparing in 2 rounds) or very, very, deadly (monster one-shots anyone that isn't the barbarian). It doesn't help that many of the players place almost no value on defensive measures (Hi Dave!).

But I am determined to finally pierce the veils of high-level D&D for the first time ever, in a lifetime of playing the game...

 

[Hussar]

Hey Crothian! I'm happy to explain it!
*snip*
While there can be good answers to this, especially as you add context, I think the prospect of the mental effort of handling these possibilities is what deters GMs and even players from high level play.

I honestly think this might be the best explanation. Couple that with the workload required for crafting a campaign that will go from 1st to 20th - necessary foreshadowing, actually having a concept beyond the next dungeon or adventure - turns off a lot of DM's.

IIRC it has to do with the insane power of high level spells that essentially let you bypass most adventures unless the DM deliberately tries to screw you over. You can teleport right to the heart of the dungeon, bypassing it completely. You can abuse various sources to teleport to plane where time moves quicker, so you can rest/heal up and then pop right back in as though nothing happened. You can use Time Stop and then cast several Meteor Swarms to obliterate anything. Polymorph into a dragon/dire bear/efreet/whatever and smash things AND cast spells. The list goes on and on.. I'm not saying ALL high level games are like this, but most of these things aren't even abuses but common usage.

I see this a lot, but, really, this is just not true. For one, the whole scry/buff/teleport thing doesn't work in practice. You need a crystal ball first off, unless you enjoy toting around a great bloody mirror. Secondly, scry has a saving throw and only works on creatures. You have to have some idea of who you are scrying. At these levels, the chances that someone is going to be a named NPC the PC's are aware of AND fail his will save are very, very slim. Never mind spell resistence as well.

Abusing various sources is a DM problem and can occur at any level. If the DM is too weak to say no to his players, then he should perhaps brush up on his skills.

*snip*

But considering the range of power levels D&D spans, if you create a street urchin, or a merchant's bodyguard, or a poor peasant girl who spontaneously manifests magical powers, it's best to be prepared that those concepts won't work quite as well 15 levels later. You can easily start out as a poor peasant girl, but by 15th-level she had better evolved into a seductive manipulative sorceress who hides her humble beginnings, or the legendary saint touched by the gods, or something like that. A 16th-level, shapeshifting, teleporting, dead-raising, wind-walking poor peasant girl with hundreds of thousands of gp in magical equipment doesn't really make much sense.

And jasin FTW. I think it really does play to the idea that many DM's and players just don't think that far ahead. Never mind the rather large number of DM's who actively discourage people from "builds" as well. If you hate it when your players have an idea of what their character will look like at 15th level when they are currently 1st, then it becomes very difficult for my character concept to shift with the time.

 

[kensanata]

Which begs the question, where are the other heroes? Do you ever mention any of them? I often forget to mention other adventurers, treating the PCs as "THE" heroes as compared to "a few" heroes.

I have featured a "demon hunter", a "protector of the eastern woods", and his "evil trickster brother" in the company of four "ogre" grunts. These provide "solo" adventurers, maybe with cohorts. Such encounters are easier to play than a group of four or more, all diverse and with their own opinions.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't have time to read this whole thread so someone else may already have made this comment.

You don't have time to read the thread, but you have time to formulate your own opinion and write it down?

I think another aspect of high level is the power swing when buffs are involved. A 13th level party can sometimes take on CR 18 challenges with the right buffs and spells ready, yet at other times can be seriously threatend by CR 11 challenges if caught without their magic up. At low level a character's abilities are there abilities, and while there are some buffs and changes they are generally minor.

 

[Hussar]

You don't have time to read the thread, but you have time to formulate your own opinion and write it down?

I think another aspect of high level is the power swing when buffs are involved. A 13th level party can sometimes take on CR 18 challenges with the right buffs and spells ready, yet at other times can be seriously threatend by CR 11 challenges if caught without their magic up. At low level a character's abilities are there abilities, and while there are some buffs and changes they are generally minor.

Honestly, I'm not sure that's a 100% true. Many of the buffs last 10 minutes/level or more. Hero's Feast, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Prot from Evil 10 foot, that sort of thing. So, IME, at the mid double digit levels, the party is fairly buffed from the time they wake up. Other than the Cleric going all Righteous Might and whatnot, the party has most of the buffs that they are going to use already on. The animal buffs tend not to matter so much since the guys that can use them already have better magic items for buffing abilities.

I think that's more a problem between 9-13th where the party's items are weaker than the buffs and the durations are so short that they don't last all day. After 13th, when your 10 minute/level spells last two or three hours (or more with a feat), these problems tend to vanish. I see the party smacking on a standard buff package at the start of the day and then moving on.

Granted, IMO, buffing is one place in the game that could use a massive simplification. I'd love to see buffs work in the same way as Summon Monster spells.

 

[Reynard]

I think that's more a problem between 9-13th where the party's items are weaker than the buffs and the durations are so short that they don't last all day. After 13th, when your 10 minute/level spells last two or three hours (or more with a feat), these problems tend to vanish. I see the party smacking on a standard buff package at the start of the day and then moving on.

It seems odd that 2-3 hour buffs would result in buffs being "always on". I guess if the PCs are the ones to set the schedule -- i.e. "We'll 'port in and hit the big bad at 10:15 and be home in time for lunch with that buxom barmaid." -- it works out that way, but if they actually have to explore or otherwise work on a schedule not their own, having buffs always on isn't a given.

One of the biggest problems I had while running a 13th level+ Eberron game was the PCs had all the tools necessary to choose the times and places of their battles. The resource management aspect went right out the window because they didn't need to save anything up. They had a plan that used x, y, and z resources and that was it for the day, week or even month. Outside of handwaving ways to defeat this tactic, there wasn't a whole lot I could do. Even when I used legal but powerful tools against them, to try and mitigate the long planning for a short strike and bypassing all the mooks problem, they got upset because it meant their permanent non-detections, etc... weren't working right.

Of course, the other issue with the high level stuff is managing complex enemies and NPCs. This is easily solved though: use high CR monsters when you can, rather than classed NPCs, and when you do use classed NPCs, give them simple and efficient builds.

Even so, I am not even bothering with high level 3e any more. I am heading back to 2E, I think.

 

[Hussar]

Reynard - the reason that the 2 or 3 hour durations mean that the buffs are always on is because you can cast the spells multiple times per day. Take something like Circle of Protection from Evil. Fantastic buff. Blocks all those pesky mind control effects from turning your fighter meatshield against you. It's a 3rd level spell. Cast it twice a day and you've got pretty much the entire day covered.

Besides that, after two or three hours of combat, you're pretty much done in most scenarios. Certainly in any dungeon setting, you're not likely going to have to go for more than that. And, if the adventure calls for a time limit, the PC's are going to do exactly that. Besides that, IME, those buff spells get whacked onto scrolls and used liberally. Most of the best buffs are 4th level or lower anyway. Between wands and scrolls, I see no reason why you wouldn't have them on most of the time.

 

[Reynard]

Besides that, after two or three hours of combat, you're pretty much done in most scenarios. Certainly in any dungeon setting, you're not likely going to have to go for more than that.

I was more referring to the fact that if the PCs are exploring, it could very easily be 2 or 3 hours between fights (game time) and constantly re-upping buffs means less firepower when the proverbial poop collides with the proverbial fan.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Besides that, after two or three hours of combat, you're pretty much done in most scenarios. Certainly in any dungeon setting, you're not likely going to have to go for more than that. And, if the adventure calls for a time limit, the PC's are going to do exactly that. Besides that, IME, those buff spells get whacked onto scrolls and used liberally. Most of the best buffs are 4th level or lower anyway. Between wands and scrolls, I see no reason why you wouldn't have them on most of the time.

That's what Dispel Magic is for. Not all the time mind you, but the intelligent baddies who might already know about the party and some of their abilities should be ready to knock down some of their buffs.

 

[hong]

That's what Dispel Magic is for. Not all the time mind you, but the intelligent baddies who might already know about the party and some of their abilities should be ready to knock down some of their buffs.

That's (one reason) why I never use dispel if I can help it. Not only do I _like_ watching buffed-up PCs pull off amazing stunts and smiting, but recalculating after a dispel can be just a pain.