Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[Hussar]

And, other than casters, not much can actually cast Dispel Magic. Outside of dragons and classed NPC's, dispel magic is pretty much off the table. I like using critters, so, wizzies don't see a whole lot of loving in my games. Besides, a dispel magic targetted at the group is only going to catch one spell. Wasting a full round of actions to lift off someone's Hero's Feast buff is a major waste of time.

Again, it comes down to the whole 4 round thing. Most encounters, particularly at these levels, don't last much more than that. If I spend one round casting dispel magic, that's a round that I'm not unloading with my biggest spells.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I see this a lot, but, really, this is just not true. For one, the whole scry/buff/teleport thing doesn't work in practice.

Not in the WLD, especially, where Teleport is forbidden. But, even there, I've heard of some DMs getting shocked by the changes to the game at higher levels:

To be honest, this is the first time I've had PC's of these levels and I'm pretty shocked how powerful the group is. They just sauntered into the formian lair, took one look, and let the cleric and wizzie incinerate everything. Good grief. A pair of blade barriers and a wall of fire and wall of force later and pretty much everything died before it had a chance to move. I had changed the mooks into mobs from DMG 2, but, that didn't matter a whole lot.

Honestly, I'm a little worried about this. I can really see the party continuing to do this. Walking into the larger areas and just unloading the kitchen sink on everything. Since the majority of the critters are pretty small, even the xill are around 35 hp, I'm not sure but it shouldn't take them too long to kill everything before it can even react.

Will have to give it some thought.​

Yes, DMs can find ways to deal with it. Still, I wonder what the person who wrote the above will be shocked anew when his players reach Epic levels. I also think that some of these problems could have been addressed from the get-go.

Here's hoping that 4th Ed deals with them.

 

[Hussar]

Not in the WLD, especially, where Teleport is forbidden. But, even there, I've heard of some DMs getting shocked by the changes to the game at higher levels:

To be honest, this is the first time I've had PC's of these levels and I'm pretty shocked how powerful the group is. They just sauntered into the formian lair, took one look, and let the cleric and wizzie incinerate everything. Good grief. A pair of blade barriers and a wall of fire and wall of force later and pretty much everything died before it had a chance to move. I had changed the mooks into mobs from DMG 2, but, that didn't matter a whole lot.

Honestly, I'm a little worried about this. I can really see the party continuing to do this. Walking into the larger areas and just unloading the kitchen sink on everything. Since the majority of the critters are pretty small, even the xill are around 35 hp, I'm not sure but it shouldn't take them too long to kill everything before it can even react.

Will have to give it some thought.​

Yes, DMs can find ways to deal with it. Still, I wonder what the person who wrote the above will be shocked anew when his players reach Epic levels. I also think that some of these problems could have been addressed from the get-go.

Here's hoping that 4th Ed deals with them.

Wow, throwing my own words at me out of context. Thanks. If you had bothered to read the rest of the thread, you would have seen that it took me about ten minutes to figure out how to fix the problem. And, that the problem wasn't that the party was too powerful but that the area was poorly designed (a point specifically called out by the guy on the cover of the book).

In other words, I got caught with my pants down because I hadn't done my prep work properly. That happens. Note, I don't whine about how the game is broken or that high level characters are no fun. I saw pretty quickly that using CR 3 mooks against 15th level PC's was a bad idea.

The moral of the story? Take a minute to actually do prep work and these sorts of problems melt away.

Not in the WLD, especially, where Teleport is forbidden. But, even there, I've heard of some DMs getting shocked by the changes to the game at higher levels:

No, it doesn't happen because of the reasons I listed above - the fact that you need a target to scry on. Not every adventure has a known boss sitting at the end of it. If you go into the Lords of the Iron Fortress, for example, Scry isn't going to help you at all since you have no idea of who is actually inside the Fortress. Scry would do absolutely nothing for you in White Plume Mountain, as another example, since the guy that brought you there isn't actually to be found in the complex. I'm sure there are other examples.

People bring up the bugaboo of scry/buff/teleport all the time, but, it's one of those internet memes like how 3e is like a video game. It looks good on paper but sees almost no use in actual play.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Wow, throwing my own words at me out of context.

How are they out of context? Does the quote somehow not mean what you meant when you wrote it?

The fact that you later changed your mind doesn't make the quote out of context.

If you had bothered to read the rest of the thread, you would have seen that it took me about ten minutes to figure out how to fix the problem. And, that the problem wasn't that the party was too powerful but that the area was poorly designed (a point specifically called out by the guy on the cover of the book).

I did read the rest of the thread. It's actually one of my subscribed threads, because I do plan on using the WLD again some day. I remember well when we've discussed the flaws of the product -- you suggesting that I hadn't read past sections A & B, me suggesting that there were other flaws to the product. Nice work on the suggested changes, btw.

Anyway, imagine if you would that you personally are a pretty dedicated and talented DM. Your work on the WLD shows that to be true, IMHO. Now, imagine that the guy who designed the Derro section was an average-to-good DM. Probably wasn't Mr. Crap-on-a-Stick, but not up to your caliber. Probably a bit better than average.

Now examine that quote again. "[T]his is the first time I've had PC's of these levels" probably doesn't make you an expert on how high-level play typically goes in this version of the game. "and I'm pretty shocked how powerful the group is" has nothing to do with the writing of the section -- except, of course, that the designer didn't really understand what "high level" in 3.X means, either.

And, the editor might have been under a time crunch, but I bet he didn't realize just how much of a cakewalk that region would be with the RAW when the book was first released. Didn't he express surprise with how easy one of the dragon encounters is in another region, even now?

So, you spent "10 minutes" fixing the problems for your group. And, I would certainly argue that you are an above-average DM.

How long do you think the "average DM" is going to have to spend?

EDIT: It also occurs to me that, if you really took only ten minutes to fix the area, then the design team did a really poor job, because the "it was a mess/time constraints" excuse simply doesn't wash. Or else it took more than 10 minutes. Or else, you're just an amazingly good DM.

EDIT AGAIN: BTW, the purpose of some of those other divination spells is to obtain the name of the right person to scry on.

 

[Quartz]

The solution is to "injure" the party with something other than HPs. Use more creatures/effects that cause stat/level drain/damage. Something that inflicts -4 Con damage will cause about 30% hp loss in a teen-level fighter but is felt much more viscerally than a 30 or even 50% hp loss.

I must disagree. Or rather, suggest a better way. Don't allow the characters to rest so much. Maybe there's a time limit. Maybe there's nowhere for them to rest. Maybe something else. And hit them with a Greater Dispel or a Disjunction. And if they do rest, have the evil guys regroup, bring in reinforcements, bring forward the ceremony, move, etc.

 

[Crothian]

I must disagree. Or rather, suggest a better way. Don't allow the characters to rest so much. Maybe there's a time limit. Maybe there's nowhere for them to rest. Maybe something else. And hit them with a Greater Dispel or a Disjunction. And if they do rest, have the evil guys regroup, bring in reinforcements, bring forward the ceremony, move, etc.

That can work. I also like having adventures that don't play to the PCs strengths. Have encounters they aren't prepared for or encounters were they prepare for one thing but get another.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I must disagree. Or rather, suggest a better way. Don't allow the characters to rest so much. Maybe there's a time limit. Maybe there's nowhere for them to rest. Maybe something else. And hit them with a Greater Dispel or a Disjunction. And if they do rest, have the evil guys regroup, bring in reinforcements, bring forward the ceremony, move, etc.

Not particularly relevant in my particular case as the meat-shields have fast heal. If they can go 15-20 minutes without a fight they recover completely. The casters can be healed 90% with a single Mass Heal. Thanks to a couple of expensive pearls of power, there are few cases where they can't spare the spell or the time to cast it. (20ty LEvel


And I was addressing a particular "feel" problem where high level characters don't feel any significant sense of urgency from being wounded the way you do at lower levels. Losing HPs just aren't that big of a deal to high level fighters and barbarians unless you inflict mage-killing damage. However a fighter is just as concerned by a -3 Con as a mage.

 

[Animus]

Sorry, I've already got 8 players.

Can I have one?

 

[Hussar]

EDIT: It also occurs to me that, if you really took only ten minutes to fix the area, then the design team did a really poor job, because the "it was a mess/time constraints" excuse simply doesn't wash. Or else it took more than 10 minutes. Or else, you're just an amazingly good DM.

Heh, you won't get an arguement from me on that one. Jim Pinto basically said that the region was sent in very late and he didn't have the time to do much with it. I know that changing the stat-blocks could be time consuming, but, they don't have to be.

Essentially, I got caught not doing my prep. In a high level game, you can't do that. At low levels, you can wing it and have a pretty decent chance of getting it right. High level doesn't have that flexibility. There are just too many variables.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

using CR 3 mooks against 15th level PC's was a bad idea.

Yeah, that's not a problem of high-level play. I don't know whether it's a problem at all: Sometimes, there are mooks like that in front of high-level characters. The party will mop the floor with them, and they're supposed to mop the floor with them.

It's a nice thing to do, from time to time, it's like saying: "Hey guys, remember those critters from way back who gave you such a headache? Here they are again, now it's your payback time." Show them how far they came not just with larger numbers after "Level", but by letting them blast away stuff they fought before - but this time, it's no problem at all.

People bring up the bugaboo of scry/buff/teleport all the time, but, it's one of those internet memes like how 3e is like a video game. It looks good on paper but sees almost no use in actual play.

Never encountered it, either.

The reason that these things are theoretically possible doesn't mean that the players have to use them. Just have a little chat early on: "Hey guys, we want this to be fun, so why don't we agree that noone will use a blind kobold, a bucket of snails, or scry/buff/teleport for everything?"

So, you spent "10 minutes" fixing the problems for your group. And, I would certainly argue that you are an above-average DM.

How long do you think the "average DM" is going to have to spend?

I just want to say again that the problem in question is not a problem that has to do with high level games. It has to do with bad design.

If you have a module (or self-written adventure) that doesn't pit 15th-level characters against 3rd-level enemies, the problem will not appear, and the average DM will spend no time at all fixing it.

Essentially, I got caught not doing my prep. In a high level game, you can't do that. At low levels, you can wing it and have a pretty decent chance of getting it right. High level doesn't have that flexibility. There are just too many variables.

It surely is hard. But you surely can "semi-wing" it: Get some NPC stats (make them up yourself, get them from rulebooks, supplements, modules, whatever, or just from the internet - there's wikis and all that for NPCs) and wing the story. Now, you basically let them do what they want, and when they run into challenges, you get an appropriate NPC from your library, change some details (this will be mainly flavour) to make him fit, and fire away.

Say, they have 3 possible ways to get some item: 1: Storming the castle and take it, 2: sneaking in and steal it, and 3: luring the guy who has it out of his castle and rob him.

If they do 1:, they'll have to face some guards and other protectors, including the guy's bodyguard (our NPC)
In 2:, they have to find a way in, get past traps and secret doors, and sneak past people. They might run into our NPC as he guards his master's personal chambers, and either fight or distract him.
In 3:, the bauble's owner will be guarded by his bodyguard (our NPC)


In fact I found that, without railroading, a semi-flexible approach is required most of the time. The players have lots of ways to deal with problems, and you can't possibly think of all of them! So you have to "cheat". They might have free rein in their methods, but the fights are more or less "rail-roaded" (i.e. they will always face opponent X - but one time it's Evil Harry Dread the Darklord, another time a mercenary leader, and another time the Eternal Guardian of the Most Holy McGuffin)